1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Two Factor Authentication is now available on BeyondUnreal Forums. To configure it, visit your Profile and look for the "Two Step Verification" option on the left side. We can send codes via email (may be slower) or you can set up any TOTP Authenticator app on your phone (Authy, Google Authenticator, etc) to deliver codes. It is highly recommended that you configure this to keep your account safe.

script source code remover

Discussion in 'Programming' started by donkey, May 20, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Wormbo

    Wormbo Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2001
    Messages:
    5,913
    Likes Received:
    36
    I usually add comments where I got certain pieces of code, e.g. functions from wUtils classes or from other mods (sometimes even if they are from one of my own mods). :)
     
  2. jb

    jb New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2000
    Messages:
    278
    Likes Received:
    0
    You just do that so you can blame people when you find a bug in their code and it effects your mod :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

    JK btw.
     
  3. CodePig

    CodePig New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2003
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    0
    for more info see this thread

    another thread on this subject.

    codepig
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2004
  4. Zengi

    Zengi New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    0
    I understand why you think it is not a good thing. I agree with you completely. However, I believe that helping should be optional. If people want to keep it private that should be their decision to make.

    I think you guys are so unjaded because of the size of the Unreal community. If someone rips you off you will prolly never hear about it. In Rune, if someone ripped you off you'd prolly see your creation in days. I've had people take my things and just tag their name on them and change it slightly for their purposes. I can't explain how pissed off that made me feel. In Rune, I was the first to write decently working vehicle code. Several people just took it, without asking for it, and without giving credit and changed it. The changes were so small that you could blatantly tell it was my creation. In many cases some things were being tested, not even close to final release before they were stolen. I've had people steal my stuff and claim credit for it that were dumb enough to leave my name tag in the code....

    You can't blame people for not wanting to share SOME things. I don't hide most things, but I do hide some things that I consider a privilage. If I have to work for weeks to figure out a new system of doing something that I think is very cool, then people will have to ask before it is handed out.

    Not saying everything should be hidden, that would be no fun and pointless ultimately. Code obscuring should still be a matter of choice though.
     
  5. Mr Evi1

    Mr Evi1 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2002
    Messages:
    336
    Likes Received:
    0
    There have been incidences of mod and map theft in this community. The culprits tend to be pointed out and taken note of very quickly. Everyone will remember them and they will be ridiculed whenever they dare poke their heads back in. It doesn't happen often though. I feel that the very openness of the Unreal modding community helps discourage dishonest behaviour.


    As I mentioned earlier, if your code is so original that it is worth protecting, then why is it a free, publicly available mod? If it's that good then you should be selling it.



    Of course no one can stop anyone else from doing whatever they want to their code, but anyone who does so should not expect any help from anyone else, nor should they even think about looking at anyone else's code.
     
  6. Extrarius

    Extrarius New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would like to point out two things:
    1) It is impossible to write secure software unless both ends are trustworth. This is not the case in online gaming, where the client may be attempting to cheat. Thus, 'security by obscurity'(which is not actually security) is the only thing possible. Open source denies even this possibility since it practically always takes more time to create the original code than it does to reverse engineer it (making up the algorithms etc is the hard part, and once it is in code it isn't hard to understand).

    2) Closed source makes forums such as this even MORE important, because it allows people to help eachother while keeping their products private. Closed source does not mean "STFU and don't ask questions because I wont tell you how I did it", it means "you can't see my source code unless I allow it" and nothing more. Developers can still have friendly chats and explain things to eachother and even share source if they so choose. The point is, the creator has the choice to not share source as well.

    I'm for closed source, open community. This means people should share how they do things, help eachother out, and in general be nice, but not include source by default. That way lamers have to go the extra mile to get the source and abuse it (be it by asking kindly or decompiling it).
     
  7. Zengi

    Zengi New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    0
    Couldn't have sayd it better.
     
  8. Mr Evi1

    Mr Evi1 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2002
    Messages:
    336
    Likes Received:
    0
    1) Are you suggesting that Epic should not allow us access to the UScript source? Would it really be that much more secure? Are open source mods that much of a security risk? Cheaters are rare enough in standard UT2004, they are almost unheard of in mods. Cheat protection is one area where not releasing source code meets with my approval, e.g. AntiTCC, but such mods are a rare exception.

    2) A closed source community makes it impossible to self-teach by looking at pre-existing code. I've learnt plenty from taking apart the UT2004 source and that of a few mods too. Likewise, plenty of people look at my source. I certainly wouldn't want hundreds of e-mails asking me for the source code whether or not I was willing to give it out (even as it is I still get quite a few e-mails asking me for source code from those who obviously don't know how to extract it for themselves). It would make it a lot more difficult to help others if I was trying to not give away any of my own code; It's very convenient to be able to post an example of something I have done in the past rather than giving a vague descriptive answer.

    Not releasing source makes it slightly more difficult for thieves to steal stuff, but it is a significant disadvantage to the vast majority of normal modders who simply want to learn. It is not acceptable to me to allow a tiny number of individuals to have such a negative impact on the entire community. And as I have said before, I don't understand why anyone who is writing code worth protecting is making free mods? If you're that good you should be working professionally.
     
  9. [SAS]Solid Snake

    [SAS]Solid Snake New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2002
    Messages:
    2,633
    Likes Received:
    0
    I suppose we'll have to ahree to disagree. It appears that there are simply just two groups here with very opposing opinions.
     
  10. Zengi

    Zengi New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    0
    Alright so this has been dead and burried years ago.
    Recently I came back into the coding thing however and I'd still like to beat this dead horse some.
    I don't necesarily think that hiding code is ethical but some of the points used against it are terrible.

    If I teach you how write it does not give me the right to rewrite any novel you will ever write.

    People go to the wiki they go here and plenty other places. They ask, help is given. I ask , help is given. People ask me, I give help.

    Alright I like to use the Rune community because this is a good example in my opinion.

    Rune is a dead game but there are still hundreds of people playing it ( not thousands persay ).

    There are three prominent RPG - server side saving, mods in Rune.

    I just saw someone release a mod, the third of the above type, that is, blatantly, a rip of something released about two years back. All of the structure under the hood is exactly the damn same with no credit given.

    The person who commited this was not able to do it to my mod because I strip the code using HexWorkshop for my mod. I can't use the ucc method since it doesn't really exist yet, rune's too old.

    Yes a determined person can easily get UTPT and open my code. However, it has been my experience that people knowledgable enough to break into code usually have some understanding of ethics, higher than the uninitiated.

    Usually people that are crafty enough to reverse the 9th byte, aaodecrypt , and UTPT have been around long enough to have some understanding over the right and wrong of copy and pasting 95% of code.

    Therefore people providing tools that deter ripping should not be pummeled into nothingness.

    Most of my creations are not protected at all.

    But on some of my bigger projects I would like people to ask permission before they go and hack it up ( and I do distribute large pieces of my code to whomever asks ).

    Also on the issue of making downloads smaller.

    My mod is mostly code that reuses various pre existing meshes to create complex effect. Stripping the source code would cut 1/3 or more off of the size. The mod is not up for download it is just directly downloaded off the server and since Rune's netcode is absolutely terrible, and nobody has made viable redirection yet, size is of high importance. I only wish the above program worked for the Rune .u's I just tried to feed it because although I fill the code in, I do not know how to actually shrink it and change the UID to get the size down.


    Also Fish has stated that if I hide some of my code I should not expect help on anything. I help people more than I am helped. I don't see why I should not be helped at all for trying to protect things in a rathe cuthroat environment ( Rune coding community ).

    Also if it is worth hiding I should charge money for it. That seems funny to me. So I should charge money for it if it is to be protected , yet the license doesn't allow me to do so. Circular argument. Also even without the charging money it is my choice to give out my creations the open and the closed to the community for the free. This choice should have no corelation to the choice I make regarding the source.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2005
  11. [SAS]Solid Snake

    [SAS]Solid Snake New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2002
    Messages:
    2,633
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gah, this is DEAD. Just LEAVE IT ALONE. Just do what the hell you want. No one cares anymore.
     
  12. Asgard

    Asgard New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2000
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    0
    Can you all please send me links to you latest mods? Id like to add them to my own scripts and make a super mod. If you dont want to send me the links thats ok i can probablly grab them off your server and get them from cache. Im going to take full credit tho and claim the work as my own.. Yeah im serious. I dont actually care if you offer me help I can make my own mods anyway. If you decide to dicredit me thats ok i'll do the same to you.

    Ok now that I've got your attention, I dont really want your mods :) and no I wasnt serious.
    However this happened to a friend of mine. As he wrote the mods these people would go to his server grab the mod from cache and add it to their own mods. He had to stop public beta testing to try to end it. the people concerned in some cases would release their mod with his code before he did. As much as they were discredited players only believe what they want. In the end he got sick of it and no longer makes mods. The other people went on to using code from other sources and their mod is still used today. And yeah they still claim it as their own.

    My own experience I had someone decide to edit one of my mods. Not wait for me to fix it or change it. Which meant that anyone using the mod they dowloaded from my web page would get a mismatch.

    With ver 2 of the mod tho i put a stop to the editing by obfuscating it. Sure it can be reverse engineered but anyone that can do that usually doesnt bother with simple unreal mods.

    With the stripping of code not being much this is bumkin. perhaps you dont write very big mods or havent tried it. When your doing a mod with 50-100 or more scripts the saving can be quite considerable. I managed to reduce one of my mods down from 1.1 meg to 500 k. That can be the difference of a player getting impatient and going to another server. But then that is pure script, sounds and textures are another matter.

    Anyone that has asked for help with the scripts tho Ive just sent them the source. Its not about stopping noobs from learning. But once youve had your mods editing by someone else and released under the same name you might see a need for it.

    Some mods I obfuscate and some I dont but then if anyone wants my code all they have to do is ask. Basically I dont want my mods edited, I get enjoyment from doing them myself and I dont want someone to release my mods before I do even under a different name.

    As far as obfuscating being cosidered rude to the modding community, if thats the case so be it, however its certainly not intended. Personally I find not using the magic words "please" and "thankyou" to be rude. I dont see that just because I make mods this makes me exempt.
    My mods arent very good tho as I dont get hundreds of emails asking me "how i did It" :)

    The above tool is quite good it doesnt obfuscate the code and noobs can still read the code with utpt so why not use it? Peronally I think its a great little tool and well done.
     
  13. [SAS]Solid Snake

    [SAS]Solid Snake New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2002
    Messages:
    2,633
    Likes Received:
    0
    Like I said, do whatever the hell you want. No one gives a crap.
     
  14. Asgard

    Asgard New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2000
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did.. I just replied
     
  15. Switch`

    Switch` Pixelante

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    0
  16. Wormbo

    Wormbo Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2001
    Messages:
    5,913
    Likes Received:
    36
    Reducing file size is not really a good argument for removing source code. Today's internet connections combined with two features of the UnrealEngine called "redirected downloads" and "UZ compression" provide reasonable download speeds already.

    Also, while decompiled source code is still good enough for ripping off a mod, it is certainly no longer suited to help UnrealScript newcomers lerning the language. And be honest, you also learned from existing (exported or downloaded) code, not from code you decompiled with WOTgreal or UTPT.

    IMHO there's only one valid reason to strip the source code from a package: You're ashamed of your own crappy code and are afraid anyone could see it.

    Your code probably isn't unique enough to require any protection. In fact, if you really think it is that unique, you should show everyone to prove it.
     
  17. Zisu

    Zisu Rune Player

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2004
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    As a fellow Rune coder and even my puny creations have been 'stolen' in the past so i symphatize Zengi. I am too dumb to know how to remove source code from the compiled file. As my mods are only text and I only use existing graphics, this could help reducing the size.

    You should understand that Runes netcode is crap (UT99 early version), utterly and completely (removing nativereplication is probably the worst thing ever). There are no redirected downloads so everything needs to be downloaded using the engine. This has a limit of 20k as most know. Many servers have it as 5k, and there is a guide to use max 10k in the server, however good a connection (link: RuneGame.com forums). Removing source code in case of Rune is justified.

    I think also (at least) 'public' beta testing on mod etc is just that way. You don't want anyone releasing ripped version of your mod before you yourself think it's ready...
     
  18. Tyrone

    Tyrone New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    UT2k4 Crypter

    where do i find UT2k4 Crypter? its better than ucremove.exe i heard.
     
  19. draconx

    draconx RuneUT

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2002
    Messages:
    325
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let the dead rest in peace!

    Maybe if you had READ the thread it would have given you an indication of how likely the community here is to tell you where to get such a tool.
     
  20. elmuerte

    elmuerte Master of Science

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2000
    Messages:
    1,936
    Likes Received:
    0
    too late, I already stole your code and ideas
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page