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script source code remover

Discussion in 'Programming' started by donkey, May 20, 2004.

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  1. donkey

    donkey New Member

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  2. Cratos

    Cratos New Member

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    file not found....
     
  3. Wormbo

    Wormbo Administrator Staff Member

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    1. It's redundant because there's a source stripper in UT200x already
    2. It's useless because people who want to see the source can still get it by decompiling (as opposed to UCC BatchExporting them)
    3. It's a bad idea, because it prevents newbies from learning from other people's code, which is the main way of learning UnrealScript
     
  4. Mychaeel

    Mychaeel New Member

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    Arggggh. We've been through this so often, and still once in a while somebody comes up with that again.

    Removing source code from .u files in order to prevent others from looking at it is considered to be somewhat antisocial in the Unreal-engine modding community.

    People learn from looking at other people's code, and virtually any coder here has benefitted from the fact that you can just export Epic's sources or just look into another mod's code to understand how something was done. To prevent anybody from ripping off your ideas and your code verbatim, you don't need source code protection -- just copyright laws; that's what they're for.
     
  5. Cratos

    Cratos New Member

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    well it reduces file size....which is good....
     
  6. Wormbo

    Wormbo Administrator Staff Member

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    It reduces the filesize by only a few kilobytes, which doesn't affect the time (that's the only reason you'd try to reduce the download size for) needed to download it by more than a few seconds. Is that really worth disallowing newbie coders to look into your mod while you had the chance of looking into other people's code to learn it?
     
  7. [SAS]Solid Snake

    [SAS]Solid Snake New Member

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    OMG yeah, my mods will now be 3 seconds faster for some on dialup and 0.05 seconds faster with someone on cable.
     
  8. donkey

    donkey New Member

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    huh? whats wrong with protecting my "mod winning source code :)" from being stolen ?
     
  9. jimboh

    jimboh Salty Sea Dog

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    I'm fairly a noob to the UnrealScript community myself, but as Mychaeel pointed out,
    Chances are, one day, while you're happily programming away at your computer, you come upon a problem that you get stuck on. Then you go around searching wiki and the likes for your specific problem..no Luck. Then you remember that some other MOD/Mutator does something that is similar with your problem. You look at their code and *POOF* it works. Thanks to that person who made their source available, you were able to solve your problem, otherwise, you would still be stuck in that hole...

    But I guess whether to strip your source code or not is up you, and not anyone else.

    -Jimboh
     
  10. Evil-Devil

    Evil-Devil silence

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    there is no way to protect your source. You can still export the scripts with ucc batchexport and the noexportflag will be ingnored in ut2k4 with the latest patch.
     
  11. chip

    chip New Member

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    that's what copyright is for, to the extent that your code is original.

    and as many have stated, stripping source code protects nothing, it just inconveniences a few who might learn from your accomplishments.
     
  12. Wormbo

    Wormbo Administrator Staff Member

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    Write a sample script, protect it with your tool and give me the .U file. I'd bet I'll need only about 5 minutes to post the code you wanted to hide.
     
  13. Cratos

    Cratos New Member

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    yeah, you can't hide the code, but you can remove the text so the size of the file gets reduced to about 30-40% left ;)
     
  14. Mr Evi1

    Mr Evi1 New Member

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    Yeah, so your uncompressed .u file goes from a massively oversized 50KB to a more manageable 20KB. Unfortunately your utx stays stubbornly at 5MB. :rolleyes:
     
  15. Zengi

    Zengi New Member

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    You guys are much too hostile. Yes there are decompilers but they don't accquire the EXACT code. They acquire something that is like what you wrote. Furthermore there are several reasons to ( in SOME cases not ALL ) hide your code. What if I needed to make a mod that saves data. What if this mod included passwords and char info. You wouldn't want the host to see all the passwords so you encrypt them. Well this would be prety damn pointless if they can just READ your encryption key wouldn't it. Furthermore what if you saved client side for char data. You don't want people coming in with hacked characters. The solution is hiding the code. Yes it can eventually be decompiled to something similar enough to read. Still it is a huge inconvenience. Furthermore if its complex enough it might just fail or be very very hard to read.

    And yes in order to protect your code there's copyright laws yay. Well I'm not going to spend money for a copyright every time I want to make something extremely original that I don't want people ripping.

    Yes, I may seem bitter on the subject but in the Rune community I've been burned faaaarrrrr too many times. Since the Unreal community is so much bigger I'd expect it to happen much more often.
     
  16. Mr Evi1

    Mr Evi1 New Member

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    If you're encrypting data, then the encryption should use some sort of key that is external to the code. There are open-source encryption schemes that do this and are considered extremely secure. Merely being able to see the source should not have a negative effect in this case.

    In the second case, saving character data client-side is just asking to be hacked. Regardless of the availability of source it will happen (look at games like Diablo - totally hacked to death even without source).

    For your last point, if you'remaking something so very original that you feel the need to go to great lengths to protect it, then why on earth is it a mod for an Unreal game?
     
  17. elmuerte

    elmuerte Master of Science

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    yes like: http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/RSA
     
  18. dataangel

    dataangel New Member

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    The only instance in which removing source code might be a good idea is for something like Zero Ping which would be easily exploitable if the code was looked at (or so I hear).

    If you don't understand why you can have open source code and secure encryption, you should read up on the concept of private/public keys.

    We had this debate a lot in the WarCraft3 community -- in which support for protection is greater because without it lots of knock off mods are made that are rigged in favor of one player (I've never seen this happen in UT) and because it decreases file size (the gains in War3 can be around 200KB, and with lots of dial up players that's significant).
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2004
  19. [SAS]Solid Snake

    [SAS]Solid Snake New Member

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    I don't think we're hostile, it has more to do with the fact that people come here on the forum asking for help. As this is a forum to ask for help, some of us do give help out. After all the help is given out, and then the person who requested help then locks up his code and refuses to show it to anyone, it basically means that he feels that his code was all of his own work and doesn't want to share it with anyone. So naturally everyone who helped him out feels like they've just been given a dish of rancid meat.

    That's the the whole issue. Why is it that most of us coders who have been coding for years don't bother too much with trying to hide our code? It's because we know that most of the time we are inventing entirely new concepts/ideas on what we are doing with Unrealscript rather than just general tasks. By general tasks I am talking about basic game related code, so new weapons, new vehicles etc etc etc. Take El_Muerte extended TCP/IP connectivity or the Wiki's wUtil's. That stuff is adding more functionality to the Unreal engine (UT2003/UT2004 in this case). If they all decided to hide the code for those things, then they would only ever get used for the respective mods and the community also feels let down.

    Any Unrealscripter that is worth his salt, doesn't even need obfusication to understand code. So what if you written function names, variables legibly. The fact that the code that is exported by decompilers still retain the method of how you did it, is enough. The only thing that decompilers still don't do, understandably, is decompile code with the original obfusication ... which is of course not possible since those things are removed during compilation.

    If this entire community started to attempt to hide their code, then the whole point of this forum and the wiki is gone. The fact that this forum exists is the fact that there is a group of people who like/want to help out people in Unrealscript. If we all wanted to hide our code, then helping other people is certainly not in their minds simply due to the fact that you'd have to refer back to your code in order to help people which means that your code might get stolen due to the fact that you explained how you did it. How can anyone ever explain to the community that helped him out and then he back lashes at everyone else by not returning the help to other forum members that joined? A community is supposed to work 2 ways, you receive help and you give back help. Without that, communities obviously fall apart.

    I hardly ever ask the questions in this forums and I seem to be replying to most questions, but that is because I've been doing Unrealscript for ages. I don't even bother to hide my code or even worry about it. Actually most of the time I release my source code with my downloads. Why? Because sometimes people might actually want to look at it [although recently I've been bad since I haven't released them both at the same time ... my bad!].

    I recall a long time ago that someone made a player shadowing thingee. Now, it's nothing new at the time since a lot of us experienced scripters have already accomplished it. We all helped out, but once he mentioned that anyone who used his code had to pay him if they won the MSU contest, everyone felt unhappy. Why? Why should he get paid when the people who helped him out don't? The people who helped him out didn't expect to get paid in the first place, but it's the mere fact that they helped someone and that when he demanded money from other people he ignored the fact that other people did in fact help him in the progress of his project...

    So all in all, a source remover only helps to damage the community... nothing else.
     
  20. aardvarkk

    aardvarkk New Member

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    I totally agree with all of this sharing business, but I had another question that I thought would be interesting.

    Is it common practice to include comments in your source code giving credit to other people's modules? Wouldn't this be some sort of a compromise?

    That guy who made the player shadow thing might have been happy if people who used his code just gave him credit for it within their mods, no?

    Just wanted to know what people think...
     
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