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Scope/Ironsight Accuracy

Discussion in 'General Infiltration Discussion' started by Falke, Dec 9, 2003.

  1. Falke

    Falke New Member

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    Why is the same weapon with a scope much more inaccurate then with ironsights and why is the woble so much bigger?
    Testsetup:
    Weapon: M16 with Ironsights and an M16 with Acog (Bulk 45/46)
    Map: Shootingrange Target at 25m
    With Acog it wobbles from the centre to the 6er ring and back, with the Ironsight it never leaves the 10 area.
    I shoot 3 rounds first aimed the other two without doing anything just in a ~1/2 sec intervall. With ironsights all bullets are in a straight line with the scope there are more or less random in a wide pattern above the first. This way its much easier to hit anything with Ironsights then with a scope and the recoil can be compensated much easier. Any explanation?
     
  2. sublime

    sublime Cynic

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    Scopes amplify what you see. Small movements of the weapon result in larger perceived movements through the scope. Have you ever shot a real weapon with and without a scope? Try your experiment at longer ranges, such as 200m and report your results back. Then go do it in real life with a .22 or something. Report back your results.
     
  3. Falke

    Falke New Member

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    With the described test setup you can measure the absolut wobble which is independent from the magnification. The weapon should wobble with or without Scope over the same area. But as described above it doesn't do that.

    For the record yes i have.
     
  4. monkey_hanger

    monkey_hanger monkey spanker

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    For any future versions or patches, does the team not think implementing reduced sensitity when scoped, similar to when crouched would be a good idea?
     
  5. Tiffy

    Tiffy Back to champion the L85

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    I've no problems shooting targets at ranges that appear to be in excess of 300m with or without scopes.

    Distance shooting is done very well in INF now, and with the larger maps it's actually starting to feel like a real engagement.

    And for the record, yes I've fired both with and without scopes IRL and with big grown-up guns too ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2003
  6. sublime

    sublime Cynic

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    Do the tests I asked about then if you have the time. Personally, I think it has a very real feel to it. With a bit of practice in Infiltration you'll get results comparable to what you see in real life. The magnification of movement you're seeing is simply a magnification of the same movement you see without the scopes. Inf just emulates this with scopes. As you get used to it, you get better at it.

    Tiffy saying we do it very well is enough for me btw. He has a bit of experience to fall back on when forming his opinions. ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2003
  7. Falke

    Falke New Member

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    That is the way it should be, but in the game it is not that way. Just do the test at shootingrange yourself. Aim at the center of the target (set to 25m because you can see it still very clear with the ironsight) and release the aimbutton without scope it wobbles a little bit but it stays in red central circle of the target. With the scope it wobbles over the ring number 6.
     
  8. sublime

    sublime Cynic

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    Repeat the test with a real rifle and scope. Tell me how it looks and feels. Then play Infiltration and try it. Tell me how it looks and feels. I have.
     
  9. })FA|Snake

    })FA|Snake New Member

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    Falke, if Tiffy says its realistic then it is, its not worth argueing any more
     
  10. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    Just for the case you don't know this yet...

    While aimed, hold down your alternate fire button or key to control your breathing.

    again... just for the case... ;)
     
  11. Vega-don

    Vega-don arreté pour detention de tomate prohibée

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    I have to agree that theire is an error in the game here .the movement is magnified to much. thats why I don't like the acogs to much in game.

    when I shot a target at 150metters with a M16 without acog i dont need to hold breath to hit the target with the first burst.

    when i do the same with the M16 and acog i cant hit **** without hodling breath.

    the weapon misaligns when you have a scope and doesn't realy when you dont have. maybe it was to balance the weapons :rolleyes:

    if you train, im pretty sure that the acogs are useless in infiltration,exepted for nigh maps.. everyshoot you can make with the acog , i can do it faster with the AKMSU. thats why you don't realy need an acog in 2.9 :(
     
  12. Falke

    Falke New Member

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    It is not and it will not be more right if 20 people say its right. Explanation in detail: If you have a weapon in INF and just move the sight to your target and not press the aimbutton it wobbles a little bit around (to simulate the breathing and jittering of you). This movement is as described at a 25m target with ironsights in the red centre of the target. With a scope you should have the same ammount of wobble u just see it magnified through your scope - but in game the you wobble pattern ist ~3 times bigger it wobbles over much wider area of the target.
    Second test aim (press aim button) at the centre of the target fire 3 shots without moving the mouse, wait 1 sec between the shoots. With the ironsights you get a nearly perfect line from the centre to the top of the target with the scope the 2 shots after the first are not on a line they are much more to the right or left. In reality both patterns should be nearly the same.
     
  13. wrdaniel

    wrdaniel New Member

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    it's so easy. soldiers with ACOGS and SCOPES simply handle their weapons different while not in "hold breath" situation. its not a problem, its a feature.
     
  14. TOAD

    TOAD One team...one life...one chance

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    Like Snake said Falke, argueing will get you no result. Your effort is better spent learning UT Script if you don't already know it, and writing a mutie tweaking the game yourself - I've been here and done this. One more advice, get the best flamesuit you can get before going this path... ;)

    edit: and yes, I do agree with you Falke
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2003
  15. Freon

    Freon Braaaaiinss...

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    Dude, extend you arm and point your finger straight ahead. move your finger from the left to the right by a few centimeters to simulate the front sight bobbing. Now bring your finger really close to your eye and do the same thing (with the same horizontal distance, 5 cm for instance). don't you thing it's bobbing more in the later case?
    That's what happens in Inf. Of course it's not "right" because in Inf there's no real perspective. I think it's pretty normal ;)

    Well, I hope that was what you mean at least :p
     
  16. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    Well, the scope and the iron sights do use different 'bobing' values of course. Never try to compare a weapon without scope with the same one with a scope attached - not even in real life. The weight alone is different and so the whole system (weapon plus aiming device) works differently and the soldiers do use it differently.
    In addition to this the stance (stand, kneel, prone) affects the way the bobing shows up too. Again, for iron sights you do not see much of a difference but while looking to a scoped weapon it does.

    Again, the two weapons, one with scope the other without, work differently in game and do work differently in the real world too. We never wnated to implement them exactly the same cause this simply seems off for us and for many others too. If you have another opinion then ok.

    And to the ACOG not useable without holding your breath... (and in addition to the above explaination)...
    Check your stamina... it directly affects the weapon bobing. So if you are on full stamina = max stamina a player can get (and not overloaded), then your bobing will be pretty steady and you should be able to hit everything you aim at even without controling your breath. The more stamina you use the harder your breathing and so the bobing will get. Simple as this.

    Beppo
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2003
  17. Camel_Toe(l)

    Camel_Toe(l) Form Fitting

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    I just want to note, that I love the new scoping system, and yes I have shot an "actual" sniper rifle (Remington 40XB, my bro was a sniper in the US Army).

    What people have to realize is that shooting a scoped weapon on a shooting range, a controlled environment, is much different than jogging to a point crouching, looking through the scope and firing. I like the way the scope system works now, but there can be a slight improvement...

    If I were to make a suggestion for a new weapon, it would be a sniper rifle with an extendable bipod. Make the actual sniper set up by using a the weapon mode key to extend the bipod, then he can lay down with a drastically reduced viewbob. I'd use the same weapon function key for the saw's bipod, btw.
     
  18. Tiffy

    Tiffy Back to champion the L85

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    He has got a good point though and it does need looking into, possibly.

    I find the feel of the ACOG to be about right and have no difficulties shooting at range. I also think the Iron sight feel right ...... BUT I never fire with out controlling my breathing. If the accuracy is too great with iron sights and not controlling your breathing then that may be a bug.

    If you don't control your breathing and take a correct firing posture to shoot (wrong words but I hope you'll understand) then you shouldn't be able to hit a standingman sized target at a range of 50m more than about 20-50% iof the time. Get the range out to 100m and its flying-pig time for hits.

    To shoot a rifle (and this holds even for soldiers) you put the weapon in your shoulder, stop and lean into the weapon taking a firm natural stance, sight the target and start to take up the pressure on the trigger. You pause your breathing as the rifle moves through your target and make the slight sight adjustments needed to hit him and squeeze the round off. You then carry on running like a lunatic for cover or whatever.

    If you do what I see a lot of in INF, ie darting from side to side while shooting moving etc, unless the guys really unlucky or about 10m in front of you, your doing nothing other than converting rounds into empty cases.

    INF is too lenient on people who don't take the time to set a shot up.

    IRL if you where to lay at the firing point with an M16 in your shoulder and while still breathing regularly and having not 'built' a stable firing position, at 25m you will have a 'group' in the order of 8-10" or larger and with no discernable cnetre point.

    Yes range shooting is different but at the end of the day the techniques taught on the range and applied in practice are what gets you effective shots beyond the 10-20m 'your Granny could hit that' range.

    Hell I've probably been insta-posted again due to rambling and all the aboves going to have been said already or worst.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2003
  19. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    guys... do not use the word 'bug' here !! ... it is a way that we have implemented the weapon and the scopes... so it cannot be a bug by definition.
    If our minimi would fire rockets and would bob around like crazy then this would still be no bug... it would only be a way we have implemented it.

    thanks ;)
     
  20. {GD}Odie3

    {GD}Odie3 You Give Odie a Boner

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    Bug Bug Bug

    Odie3 runs and hides..... :instagib: < BEPPO Looking For ODIE3

    (BTW Just Joking just had to post the word bug)
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2003

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