reviews

[navboy]

hey looks like i got into mapping at a weird time, with the waning of UT and NaliCity going thru a major transition (i released my map in October) ... But fwiw, if anybody feels like reviewing a map from somebody new it's in the NC Last 30 Days List now and it's called DM-Gravadyne7 at:

http://nalicity.beyondunreal.com./dl.php/nalicity/utdm/dm-gravadyne7.zip


-navboy
___________________
Team Fragadelic
http://www.planetunreal.com/fragadelic/

 

[Chrysaor]

what's fwiw?

 

[MoxNix]

For What It's Worth

Regards, MoxNix

 

[lucifix]

i got into mapping at a weird time, with the waning of UT and NaliCity going thru a major transition

no ****, i started in september.

 

[navboy]

it's too bad, i'm still way into it.

Didn't get turned on to UT until exactly a year ago. then i discovered the editor by accident in May, and since i used to spend untold amounts of time making Doom maps long ago i swore i wouldn't even open the editor. But i just had to check it out to see what's changed in mapmaking since Doom and i was blown away and unable not to become obsessed with it. Computer was down all through July, but other than that worked on this first map on and off from May thru September, what a great way to learn a bit of everything from ued to custom texs to UnrealScript to ModPlug Tracker etc etc.

 

[Astyanax]

Hey Steve! Long time no see!

Did that custom teleporter work in your map? I never heard from you since August...

 

[navboy]

oh hey!

hey! what are you up to?

well as a matter of fact after corresponding with you it got me interested enough in UnrealScript to bite the bullet and start learning it, starting with thoroughly understanding the teleporter.

so i'm still not sure it's a good thing (a real timekiller) but since then i've created several cool subclasses for use in that map, a couple of them pretty elaborate, including 2 traps that do weird things to the players, and customized warpzoneportals and teleporters.

In the end i created an invisible teleporter and took out a lot more than the two lines we'd talked about, i took out everything i didn't need and finalized the remaining functions (for speed increase), then added some code in to account for a 3-dimensional offset from the teleporter location point at either teleporter ... this makes for a smooth fall. Before that, if you were offcenter while falling in the tube (most of the time), you'd see a jump in the visual because you arrive centered laterally in addition to being placed with your belly at the teleporter center even though you got teleported as soon as your toes hit the teleporter's collision cylinder. Anyway, the 3d offset took care of that.

heh, so thanks i spose for getting me interested

You can check it out in the map this thread is about:

http://www.planetunreal.com/fragadelic/utmaps/gravadyne7.htm

Have also created 2 mover classes while working on my next map, if it all works out it'll be a cool gimmick ...

 

[Astyanax]

Re: oh hey!

Originally posted by navboy
hey! what are you up to?

well as a matter of fact after corresponding with you it got me interested enough in UnrealScript to bite the bullet and start learning it, starting with thoroughly understanding the teleporter.

so i'm still not sure it's a good thing (a real timekiller) but since then i've created several cool subclasses for use in that map, a couple of them pretty elaborate, including 2 traps that do weird things to the players, and customized warpzoneportals and teleporters.

In the end i created an invisible teleporter and took out a lot more than the two lines we'd talked about, i took out everything i didn't need and finalized the remaining functions (for speed increase), then added some code in to account for a 3-dimensional offset from the teleporter location point at either teleporter ... this makes for a smooth fall. Before that, if you were offcenter while falling in the tube (most of the time), you'd see a jump in the visual because you arrive centered laterally in addition to being placed with your belly at the teleporter center even though you got teleported as soon as your toes hit the teleporter's collision cylinder. Anyway, the 3d offset took care of that.

heh, so thanks i spose for getting me interested

You can check it out in the map this thread is about:

http://www.planetunreal.com/fragadelic/utmaps/gravadyne7.htm

Have also created 2 mover classes while working on my next map, if it all works out it'll be a cool gimmick ...

You did an excellent job on that map! :tup: You can keep dropping through the holes without encountering a bottom level. I saw the release of your map at PU and immediately downloaded it. The map is just a bit.... dark. Makes it hard to see the cool geometry .

What is it with those button at the shieldbelt and under the ship? They only seem to make some cool sound....?

In case you're interested, you can find CTF-Sfear][ (the map with the "silent bots-only teleporters") at this thread.

"customized warpzoneportals"

/me is very interested about those!

 

[navboy]

hey downloaded ctf-sfear][ will check it out when i get the chance, the pics look really cool. I never heard of Showcase, maybe i should post over there?

As far as the button behind the Shield Belt and outside the ship it's mentioned briefly at the end of the readme file, wonder if i should put it more detail? Anyway, that button will "gravitationally degauss" any players/bots that happen to be out on the blood-stained metalllic grid in the center of the main floor when the button is pushed. They get a temporary health boost to 200, but only have 4 seconds to enjoy it, as an inverse locallized gravitational wave stretches their bodies up and out.

So they get about 16 feet tall and turn really skinny and dark then explode in a shower of gibs unless somebody kills them first (with Redeemer for example), then whoever pushed the button gets frag credit and that announcement comes over the intercom about "Gravitational degaussing is complete". That lets you know you got at least one kill in case you weren't up close to see them die. The button outside the ship does the same thing, just a way to try to take some others with you in case you get jettisoned through the trap door and fall to your death into the sun

If you get caught on the grid when it happens you'll know, the FOV effect is kind of like DM-Pressure only weirder.



The customized warpzoneportals ... hmm i think all i did there was again remove stuff i didn't need (like random selection of multiple destinations), then made it so they do NOT transport players/bots, because i was getting bad pauses in network play for some reason when falling through the portals, and some more experienced mappers told me they'd had problems with warpzone portals in net play as well.

So i use my specialized 3d-offset teleporter to move a falling player, and the warpzone only has to show the view at the other end and handle objects like rockets, shell casings, carcasses, etc.

 

[Astyanax]

Originally posted by navboy
hey downloaded ctf-sfear][ will check it out when i get the chance, the pics look really cool. I never heard of Showcase, maybe i should post over there?

That's what it's for! And please post some message there when you've played CTF-Sfear][.

As far as the button behind the Shield Belt and outside the ship it's mentioned briefly at the end of the readme file, wonder if i should put it more detail? Anyway, that button will "gravitationally degauss" any players/bots that happen to be out on the blood-stained metalllic grid in the center of the main floor when the button is pushed. They get a temporary health boost to 200, but only have 4 seconds to enjoy it, as an inverse locallized gravitational wave stretches their bodies up and out.

So they get about 16 feet tall and turn really skinny and dark then explode in a shower of gibs unless somebody kills them first (with Redeemer for example), then whoever pushed the button gets frag credit and that announcement comes over the intercom about "Gravitational degaussing is complete". That lets you know you got at least one kill in case you weren't up close to see them die. The button outside the ship does the same thing, just a way to try to take some others with you in case you get jettisoned through the trap door and fall to your death into the sun

If you get caught on the grid when it happens you'll know, the FOV effect is kind of like DM-Pressure only weirder.

LOL have to check that out! Bots kept pushing that button, but I never noticed any 'degaussations'!

The customized warpzoneportals ... hmm i think all i did there was again remove stuff i didn't need (like random selection of multiple destinations), then made it so they do NOT transport players/bots, because i was getting bad pauses in network play for some reason when falling through the portals, and some more experienced mappers told me they'd had problems with warpzone portals in net play as well.

So i use my specialized 3d-offset teleporter to move a falling player, and the warpzone only has to show the view at the other end and handle objects like rockets, shell casings, carcasses, etc.

Very smart! Maybe I'll ask your permission to use that script some time, because I think I can put it to good use in a twisted map I'm working on now!

 

[navboy]

hey, yeah, use the teleporter or warpzoneportal in your rollercoaster or bastardize them if you think it'd help ... i read that whole thread, fascinating.

I'd try to get involved only what little spare time i've got i'm absolutely immersed in trying to solve my problem of guaranteeing that mover faces can never disappear while playing my map ... Lots of movers in a small area, and after about three games in a row, one or two faces start disappearing. Seems to be a bsp thing, yet it doesn't happen consistently, but it's consistently similar regardless of the machine running it. Very weird that i can take more than a game or so to show up. Wish there was some sort of Repaint function i could call on the problem movers, bah.

Anway, the rollercoaster thing really looks cool, very creative, and it looks like by now you've figured out all the physics of the tunnels, but some of the early posts made me think of all the time i spent getting my Anti-Gravity lift operational. You can get some really weird results. But at the top of the lift the player is gently guided around a bend simply by the sloped architecture, the reason it's not a problem i guess is because the motion is locked into a fairly slow velocity (originally to allow time for melee and firefights inside the antigravity chamber), and for your situation you need high-velocity travel.

But it seems like at one point i had several different velocity zones in there and tried all sorts of things, many of which caused players to "stick" to the sides of the chamber, as if the walls were very sticky. It annoyed me to no end, but tinkering with the settings long enough solved it, and the only reason i have any extra zones at all now is for a special effect and a little damage that occurs halfway up. Something else to watch out for ... i don't know what the LowGrav mutator that comes with the game does physics-wise, but i think whoever wrote it was careless with some absolute values somewhere or something because it cancels out reverse gravity in some instances.

 

[Astyanax]

Originally posted by navboy
hey, yeah, use the teleporter or warpzoneportal in your rollercoaster or bastardize them if you think it'd help ... i read that whole thread, fascinating.

wow thanx

I'd try to get involved only what little spare time i've got i'm absolutely immersed in trying to solve my problem of guaranteeing that mover faces can never disappear while playing my map ... Lots of movers in a small area, and after about three games in a row, one or two faces start disappearing. Seems to be a bsp thing, yet it doesn't happen consistently, but it's consistently similar regardless of the machine running it. Very weird that i can take more than a game or so to show up. Wish there was some sort of Repaint function i could call on the problem movers, bah.

I know exactly what problem you're talking about. Take a look at this pic of a map I made (never released it though ). If you look closely you can see the CTF flag on top of the highest tower. In a small room just below the roof there's a switch. If you trigger it, the roof (an 8-sided hollow cone) will 'open up' and the flag, attach to a pillar running through the middle of that room, will come down.

As you may have guessed, this gives total ****. There are 9 movers rotating/moving at the same time, which appears to be too much for the engine. It could have looked sooo cool, but the textures on the movers are constantly flashing or totally disappearing.

Anway, the rollercoaster thing really looks cool, very creative, and it looks like by now you've figured out all the physics of the tunnels, but some of the early posts made me think of all the time i spent getting my Anti-Gravity lift operational. You can get some really weird results. But at the top of the lift the player is gently guided around a bend simply by the sloped architecture, the reason it's not a problem i guess is because the motion is locked into a fairly slow velocity (originally to allow time for melee and firefights inside the antigravity chamber), and for your situation you need high-velocity travel.

But it seems like at one point i had several different velocity zones in there and tried all sorts of things, many of which caused players to "stick" to the sides of the chamber, as if the walls were very sticky. It annoyed me to no end, but tinkering with the settings long enough solved it, and the only reason i have any extra zones at all now is for a special effect and a little damage that occurs halfway up. Something else to watch out for ... i don't know what the LowGrav mutator that comes with the game does physics-wise, but i think whoever wrote it was careless with some absolute values somewhere or something because it cancels out reverse gravity in some instances.

There's another very big problem with high-speed tunnels. It seems very few people know this, but it's very easy to cheat in velocity zones by holding down the duck key. This will give you superultramonsterlyfastspeed. Try this: press and hold the duck key just after entering the long tunnel in CTF-HallOfGiants. You'll be at the otherside almost instantly.

This is a problem with the ZoneFluidFriction being set too low (default is 1.2 I think). Setting it to 8 (just like ZoneFriction) will solve this problem, but will also introduce a new problem: projectiles will slow down in this zone and eventually keep hanging in mid air! Ever seen plasma balls, rockets and warheads just stop moving? Very strange! It's a big dilemma, I don't know how to solve it.

 

[navboy]

hey Ast,

played CTF-SFear][, despite it's technical quirks it really has a different and totally unique feel to it, which it really like in maps. Made me feel like i was in a Kubrick movie or something. Also very futuristic/scifi. Warpzones are a pain in the ass, but a very cool use of them for sure.

As far as the velocity zone stuff i just realized something. You might open up DM-Gravadyne7 and look at the zones that make up the anti-gravity lift (they're all the same) -- maybe it would give you some ideas or spark an idea for you, because i tried out the Duck key like you were talking about and it had absolutely no effect in that anti-gravity lift, which is basically a series of three identical (except for non-physics stuff) velocity zones with strong negative gravity, negative fluid friction, and zero ground friction. You seem more familiar with the ins and outs of velocity zones but maybe there's something new there that make be food for thought or something.

 

[Astyanax]

Originally posted by navboy
played CTF-SFear][, despite it's technical quirks it really has a different and totally unique feel to it, which it really like in maps. Made me feel like i was in a Kubrick movie or something. Also very futuristic/scifi. Warpzones are a pain in the ass, but a very cool use of them for sure.

/me smiles proudly

I'm working on the opposite now, some sort of planet where you can walk on the outside. Check this thread if you're interested.

Originally posted by navboy
As far as the velocity zone stuff i just realized something. You might open up DM-Gravadyne7 and look at the zones that make up the anti-gravity lift (they're all the same) -- maybe it would give you some ideas or spark an idea for you, because i tried out the Duck key like you were talking about and it had absolutely no effect in that anti-gravity lift, which is basically a series of three identical (except for non-physics stuff) velocity zones with strong negative gravity, negative fluid friction, and zero ground friction. You seem more familiar with the ins and outs of velocity zones but maybe there's something new there that make be food for thought or something.

I looked at your anti-gravity lift in Gravadyne with Ued. The duck key has no effect in there because you didn't use ZoneVelocity, but ZoneGravity to get players up. And you can't swim back because the ZoneFluidFriction is below zero, so players don't have any 'grip' in the direction opposite to the direction of the gravity. I still haven't figured out whether or not the ground friction has any effect in water zones.

You've set the z-axis gravity to a pretty high value; 8000 units. That's almost 9 times normal gravity, but as you can see that's still pretty slow in water zones. I've already tried building a high-speed tunnel using a similar set-up as your anti-gravity lift, but ZoneGravity is just too weak in water zones. Even setting it to 1000000 still gets you nowhere, at least not before you've fallen to sleep....

I think I summed up the available options pretty well in the rollercoaster thread:

Originally posted by Astyanax in the rollercoaster thread
These are the pro's and con's of the available combinations of ZoneGravity, WaterZone and ZoneVelocity:

ZoneGravity, no WaterZone, no ZoneVelocity: Players will only be pulled through the tunnel when they jump. And without vertical gravity, you'd move all the time, but you won't have any control over your Z-axis movement whatsoever.

ZoneGravity, WaterZone, no ZoneVelocity: Even at highest gravity, you'll still move too slow, and you'd be able to swim back if you leave the ZoneFluidFriction above zero.

Normal ZoneGravity, no WaterZone, ZoneVelocity: This would feel like walking through the tunnel very fast.

No ZoneGravity, no WaterZone, ZoneVelocity: Works OK, but you'd have no control over your sideway and Z-axis movement.

No ZoneGravity, WaterZone, ZoneVelocity: Best option IMO. You will always move and you'll have total control over your sideway and Z-axis position in the tunnel. With a little script you can make sure the player will never drown and you can increase his underwater speed, for even more control.

This takes me back to the ZoneFluidFriction-dilemma; either allow cheating, or f*ck up projectile weapons....... or dive into UScript...?

 

[navboy]

damn, tough decision ... in my case i wanted the odd projectile behavior, it was consistent with an intense controlled gravitational field and makes for some interesting combat on the way up; in fact you can stand outside the lift at the bottom and lob some grenades into the chamber and if anyone is hanging around the opening at the top (the only area safe from snipers) the grenades will fly up in a split second and bounce out the top and blow the camper to smithereens!

Btw, if it matters, its' not a waterzone (so you're basically "falling" up rather than swimming), and there *is* a zone velocity, though a slight one (.25 in the x and y directions) ... don't know if that helps any.

Have you tried a version of your map built around the speed you can go with the duck key? If you could get a version of that working, then maybe you could come at it from that angle, with that speed as "normal" and the players that are not ducking are at some disadvantage. Or maybe make it so there's some stuff that's easier to pick up at a slower speed and damn near impossible at duck key speed?

 

[Astyanax]

Originally posted by navboy
Have you tried a version of your map built around the speed you can go with the duck key? If you could get a version of that working, then maybe you could come at it from that angle, with that speed as "normal" and the players that are not ducking are at some disadvantage. Or maybe make it so there's some stuff that's easier to pick up at a slower speed and damn near impossible at duck key speed?

Excellent idea! :tup: I hadn't thought of that yet. This would be great for 'in-tunnel fighting'. When being persued, you could make a nice surprise attack by letting go of the duck key and attack you persuers in the back.

There's just one little problem here, which I think kills the whole idea: how would you tell the bots to duck while in a tunnel?

 

[navboy]

Excellent idea! I hadn't thought of that yet. This would be great for 'in-tunnel fighting'. When being persued, you could make a nice surprise attack by letting go of the duck key and attack you persuers in the back.

hey yeah, like coming out of warp ...

There's just one little problem here, which I think kills the whole idea: how would you tell the bots to duck while in a tunnel?

dam yeah i don't think there's a way to do that. Would still be interesting to see how it works even without them ducking, maybe it'd still work out somehow, and certain bots are prone to ducking frequently anyway it seems ...