1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Two Factor Authentication is now available on BeyondUnreal Forums. To configure it, visit your Profile and look for the "Two Step Verification" option on the left side. We can send codes via email (may be slower) or you can set up any TOTP Authenticator app on your phone (Authy, Google Authenticator, etc) to deliver codes. It is highly recommended that you configure this to keep your account safe.

Request for comments on a new stamina system

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by jayhova, Jun 25, 2004.

  1. jayhova

    jayhova Don't hate me because I'm pretty

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    334
    Likes Received:
    0
    Upon reading a related thread about the stamina system I started thinking about what would be ideal in a stamina system and what I dislike about the current system.

    Ideally I think we would all like to see a system that reproduces as realistic a model as possible. To this end I'd like to see a system that produces appropriate incentives for players to reduce the use of "Run & Gun" type of play. I would also like to keep from over punishing those who carry a heavy loadout but move methodically and carefully.

    The premise for my suggestion is that a soldier, even one who is fairy heavily laden (up to 80 to 100 lbs.) can move at moderate speeds for at least a few hours without his combat effectiveness being overly impaired. However that same soldier will become impaired if he moves at a very fast pace with this kind of load.

    The thing I most dislike about the current system is that a heavy load affects your ability to hit a target without regard to wether or not you have moved at a speed that will impair you. The most broken thing in the current system is that if you spawn with a large load you are unable to aim properly. However if say you drop one of the ammo cans from your Minimi your aim immediately begins to improve even if you are standing still. I feel this is quite unrealistic.

    Given these ideas and premises I propose the following: A non-linear fatigue system, a system in which load no longer directly affects your combat effectiveness, load would effect your ability to jump/climb & quickly change speeds, load would act as a variable when calculating how much fatigue you are losing or regaining.

    How this would work.
    At the start of the round everyone is assumed to be at the same level of fatigue and combat effectiveness. All players are recharging at a rate that makes it fairly easy to jog to a position or walk in an aimed mode. When combat starts the players gain the addition of combat stress. Combat stress increases due to contact, shots fired, bullets coming close to the player, a team member hit, a team member hit near the player, a team member killed, player hit, a team member killed near player. Of course the player getting killed resets the combat stress to zero :lol: . The idea is that the stress level is added as an activity and starts effecting your total combat effectiveness just like moving, jumping, etc. Total stress level would generally be equal to the highest stressor and not cumulative. Other things like being supported by teammates, downing an enemy, etc. might lower overall combat stress. The combat stress part of the system is optional but I think very realistic.

    Now here is the interesting part of the system. The Combat Effectiveness Meter CEM would drop whenever you preformed a stressful activity. The more stressful the activity the more the CEM would drop. The CEM would be non-linear in that the lower you caused it to drop the slower it would recharge. That is that low stress activities would reduce the CEM but it would return very quickly. This would result in the following: a lightly loaded soldier could sprint a good distance and still be able to function effectively while a heavily loaded soldier sprinting the same distance would find that he is unable to perform the same tasks as the lightly loaded soldier because his CEM is lower and he is not regenerating fatigue at the same rate. Now the burden that was no problem earlier is now preventing him from moving around without greatly impacting his recharge rate because the rate is so low that even walking around with a load that was not a problem when he was at full now greatly impacts his recovery speed. The only way around this is for him to stay put until he has caught his breath or lighten his load while he is moving. Added to this is the level of wounds a soldier has taken. Wounds would count twice because they will have a constant drain on the CEM and will in addition to this be multiplied by your load. Lastly the max Combat Effectiveness Level would be 100% minus combat stress and wounds.

    The Math
    The formula for making this work would be something like this:
    Fatigue recharge rate - Combat Stress + Wounds ((Activity+Wounds) x Burden level) = change in Combat Effectiveness
    Remember that this equation is dynamic because the FFR is determined by the total combat effectiveness.

    The effects of a low CEM
    A low CEM level should, of course, effect breathing as it does currently. In addition to this I have a suggeston. Mouse sensitivity ramping. The way it would work is this: at 100% CEM, mouse sensitivity is normal but as the soldier becomes more fatigued the mouse senitivity is low when the player starts to move the mouse and then ramps up to normal. The speed of this ramping is determained by how low the CEM is. I would also like to see the inertia of the weapons increase as the CEM decreases.
     
  2. chuckus

    chuckus Can't stop the bum rush.

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2001
    Messages:
    771
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh man... this is a bit of a touchy subject... you're a brave man...
     
  3. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

    Joined:
    May 21, 2001
    Messages:
    5,781
    Likes Received:
    0
    Considering the scoped weapons do something similar to this (reduced sensitivity & momentum), I dare say you've just made shooting easier for fatigued and wounded players.
     
  4. jayhova

    jayhova Don't hate me because I'm pretty

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    334
    Likes Received:
    0
    Of course you are right about the sensitivity for scopes being to low. I agree and have said this many times.

    The idea here is that as you move the mouse it is unresponsive at first (very low sensitivity) and then as you move the mouse faster to compensate it becomes over sensitive. The key here is varying the sensitivity. Another way to do this might be to induce a slight delay in mouse response that would increase as fatigue levels increased. Of course these levels of responce time should be in line with actually real levels.

    On the topic of momentum, I was suggesting that inertia be increased making it harder to start and stop the weapon moving. Kind of like pulling it around on a rubber band. This may in fact produce the same effect as ramping the mouse sensitivity but I don't know. If it does I think introducing a small delay might produce interesting results.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2004
  5. Derelan

    Derelan Tracer Bullet

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    this is exactly what i said, but i said it in once sentence.
     
  6. jayhova

    jayhova Don't hate me because I'm pretty

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    334
    Likes Received:
    0
    Addendum:

    I was thinking about it the other day and I came up with an additional idea for stamina and how to make it more realistic. I've noticed in the game that sometimes you can start running make it 10 feet and then drop in speed. It occured to me that if you had enough stamina to start running you would in all likelyhood have the stamina to keep running, because the hardest part is getting started. The idea is that there would be a required stamina level to begin an action and a required level to continue that action. An example of this might be sprinting. Let's say that it takes 65% stamina to continue to sprint. When you drop below that you are forced into a run. Well then it might take 75% stamina to start to sprint. That way if you start to sprint you should be able to get a reasonable distance before being forced to slow down.

    Let me know what you think guys.
     
  7. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    1,376
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is one I proposed awhile back:

    Here is the system:
    Stamina*(some constant) = Force = (some constant)*Bulk*Acceleration + (some constant)*Bulk*Speed

    Jog and Walk modes would simply stop acceleration once a certain speed was reached.

    Stamina drop = (some constant)*Force*Time.

    Playtesting will determine the values of the constants in these equations.

    The "starting action" feature is accomplished in my system by using inertia. The acceleration to jogging speed happens fast, but it still takes more stamina than simply maintaining current speed.
     
  8. NTKB

    NTKB Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,858
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow KW I thoguht you died.
     
  9. jayhova

    jayhova Don't hate me because I'm pretty

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    334
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok, here is how the real world math works. When you are walking, running, jogging or sprinting there are really only 3 forces at work, the energy you are putting out to maintain your speed, the inertia in your limbs as you force them to change direction and friction which is slowing you down and in some cases gravity which we will ignore for now as it is just as likely to be working for you as against . The friction comes in several forms, the friction in your joints and muscles this includes the energy that is not returned after your foot hits the pavement, the friction in your clothing and air resistance.

    When you are moving the load you are carrying is not as critical a factor as you might think because it has the same inertia as you do. However it will increase the loss of energy in you legs due to friction and will moderately increase your drag from air resistance.

    Now the real problem with a load is that it increases your inertia dramatically. This hampers you in a few different ways, As your foot contacts the pavement in front of you, your foot and leg absorb the shock, as your leg rolls backward this energy is returned but some is lost. When your load is greater you leg absorbs more force and but the percentage of energy lost is the same so your net loss at every step is greater. This loss of course must be made up for by adding more force back in from your legs.

    Now, as you know the more fatigued you muscles become the less force they can generate and the more energy you try to get from them the quicker they get fatigued. The greatest amount of energy needed is in starting to move, because not only is it necessary to overcome all the other factors I have previously mentioned, it is necessary to overcome all of your own inertia. The energy lost with each stride is a fairly constent percentage multiplide by your total mass including the extra weight you are carrying. This is the major contributor to muscle fatigue because at each step your muscles must make up for the lost energy.

    So let's look at this all together. Velocity=Energy expended - Energy lost. That is to say that the maximum speed you can acheive is governed the total amount of energy you can produce with your legs etc. minus the amount of energy that you will have to spend to maintain that speed. This is capped by the speed at with you can contract your leg muscles. The constents involved are the momentum of the body parts you will have to move plus the friction of your body plus gear and the percentage of energy lost at each stride. The varibles are the mass of all the gear that you are carrying plus any added air resistance.
     
  10. {GD}Odie3

    {GD}Odie3 You Give Odie a Boner

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2001
    Messages:
    1,208
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think this is a cool idea. I believe AAO has something like this (however in AAO it seems you can run at full speed forever - strange they allow that).
     

Share This Page