reflection on scope system

[Nukeproof]

The lack of interest to use Scopes/ACOGs myself and the complaints of many players made me think about it for quite a while... here is what I figured...

The current system does (IMO) involve less skills than other aspects of INF:

A skilled player will need as much time as a complete noob (with 30 min. practice) to put a full mag of well placed shots at a distance target (i.e. with PSG at 400m on shooting range) and won't be a lot closer to bullseye. Of course shooting moving targets etc. requires more skills but all in all I think the current system is not very rewarding to most players and probably not that perfect in terms of realism either.

I'd really prefer a system that
1.) doesn't give 100% accuracy with 'hold breath' and
2.) doesn't make it damn hard to hit anything without 'hold breath' preparation (even at close range)

I could imagine the current, completely regular moving pattern of the crosshair toned down a lot and superimposed by a (faster moving) random pattern (Muscle tremor ala RAv3) would work well.

The magnitude should be affected by stamina, stance, weapon and 'hold breath'. (maybe random and regular movement independently)

And the bullet should always go to the very center of the crosshair (no or much reduced canting effect for the scope but of course use balistics)

Sniping would become more predicting and compensating the motion than just pressing 'hold breath' and waiting for perfect stability. All in all this seems more appealing and realistic to me. In an biathlon article I once read they mentioned two different 'strategies' for athletes: first going for perfect stability, second accepting movement and train reflexes to trigger at perfect time... my suggestion would match the second. (I have no clue wether this is applicable for military purposes as well...I never shot anything beyond air-rifle )

To get rid of 200+ headshots with pistols and to put further differentation into the armory it might as well work out to implement something like a 'inherit weapon precision'. Bullets should be 'spawned' with a (realistic and small) random missalingment (to barrel axis), preferably using a gaussian normal distribution. (this is how shots would group in real life)

The individual maximum for a sniper rifle should be close to 0° and go up to something like 1.5° or 2° for the 'worst' pistols (1.5° translates into 2.6m maximum offset on 100m distance, average offset would be way lower due to normal distribution)

I know most of said above isn't entirely new but I just wanted to express how I feel about the whole scopes/sniping... maybe we could have something similar for 3.0 or even earlier with you fine coders out there

 

[Crowze]

To be honest, I'm not sure what you're complaining about. I find making kills as a sniper very rewarding, at least as much as in CQB or midrange. It may not be prefect in terms of realism, but it's pretty much as close as you'll get on this old engine.

1) No weapon gives 100% accuracy, even when holding breath. However at the ranges usually encountered on Inf maps you won't notice the difference.
2) I have to agree here, the bob is a bit exaggerated.

The bullets should in no circumstance whatsoever always go to the center of the crosshair. You've got both the misalignment to manage and the bullet trajectory, and removing these would make them far, far too easy to use (i.e. vanilla 2.86).

As said before, bullets already have a small amount of conefire to simulate the inherant inaccuracy of the weapon itself.

 

[Nukeproof]

As said before, bullets already have a small amount of conefire to simulate the inherant inaccuracy of the weapon itself.

I wasn't sure about confire, good to know. (But does it differ among weapons?)

To be honest, I'm not sure what you're complaining about. I find making kills as a sniper very rewarding, at least as much as in CQB or midrange.

My point is: There is no skill involved at all to get an entirely steady aim, you just push 'hold breath' and wait. On the other hand trying to learn the pattern and put well placed shots without steady weapon it is so cumbersome and not rewarding at all (at least to me)

If you encounter 2 opponenets at the same time, a skilled sniper should be able to shoot both a lot faster than an untrained guy, but as implemented now it'll take the exact same amount of time to get the second shot out.

If we had a system (like I tried to described) where 'holding breath' would slowly degrease a random muscle tremor but never reach perfect stability. (but without this huge canting effect that makes shots unpredictable on different distances) a trained sniper will have superior manual compensation and be thereby more effective.

The bullets should in no circumstance whatsoever always go to the center of the crosshair. You've got both the misalignment to manage and the bullet trajectory, and removing these would make them far, far too easy to use (i.e. vanilla 2.86).

I'm aware of 2.86 situation (or even worse before when hip-to-aim was instant) when scope was INF's Crosshair to some. I'd certainly keep trajectory but the way it is now, ironsights are far more effective (especially with multiple targets) even in situations where scopes would have an advantage IRL. The scopes should just make weaponswing visible but not cause them (like now). I would just put the job to the shooter to compensate the movement (but therefore the position of the crosshair needs to give a fair indication where the bullet will go to) instead of push and wait. All in all very similar to RAv3 but not necessarily combined with the vection system (which as I understood gives the most headache in coding)

Maybe I'm more insulated on this than I thought but you are actually the first one I spoke to who's really happy with the current system ... not that it's a complete mess or alike but I for one avoid scopes wherever I can. (unlike other games)

 

[Derelan]

I think the current system is fine. It would be nice for us experienced, bored players to have something a little more complex, but it would suck to have a system thats immediately difficult when you're a newbie.

 

[keihaswarrior]

I liked the rav3 scopes WAAAAY better than the current system. The current INF system is just...... eww, it's terrible.

-Scopes don't really "misalign," and therefore shoot off of the crosshair. If you don't align the scope to your eye, then you can't really see through it at all! So there is no way to have a "misaligned" crosshair. The current senario that happens in INF where the crosshair aims way off from the actual bullet trajectory is totally unrealistic.

Also, it should be impossible to have 100% rock steady crosshairs when shooting unsupported. There should always be a little sway and tremor when shooting unsupported.

Furthermore, it isn't really possible to jog around IRL at a good speed and maintain a scoped sight picture (like you can currently with acogs).

 

[Nukeproof]

At least somebody agrees with me

Just spent a little time on the shooting range: Placing 30 shots at 200m with M16+ironsigts is so much easier (when trying to be quick) than with ACOG... arent' these optics meant to make shooting easier? I know Scopes needed to be balanced somehow but the way it is it seems ridiculous in comparison... ironsights don't missalign but scopes do... to the amount that you fail to hit the butt at 100m. Keihas is right: this amount of missalignment would result in seeing nothing at all.


BTW... question on varying conefire for different weapons was quite silly... I guess I don't shoot pistols very often

 

[Arethusa]

I have to agree with Keihas on this one, and personally, while I do acknowledge the limitations of the current engine and I realize there are some questions as to just how much work is worth putting into this thing these days, I do feel the scope system could be dramatically improved within those limitations. As it is now, it's unreasonably far from reality.

 

[yurch]

All in all very similar to RAv3 but not necessarily combined with the vection system (which as I understood gives the most headache in coding)

The 'vection system' isn't that difficult to understand... RAv3's problems stem more from the physics of being a playerpawn mutator.

 

[Derelan]

So how about a happy medium between what we have now, and what would be realistic yet presenting scope-whoreage?

 

[Psychomorph]

I agree that the weaponsway if breathing is to big (if not injured, or tired as hell) and the weaponsway if holded breath is to small.

I´m not an scope expert, but I think in real life it works that way (as should work in INF):
1) You can hold the sniperrifle accurate, but they is always a weaponsway, that behaves like little shake (the intensitivity depends on your health, fitness and the time how long you aim the sniperrifle).
The shake start to increase after the beginning of aiming (not to fast if your health is ok, but it happens).
2) The breath, just should let the crosshair moving up and down a bit (similar to AA:O), the intensitivity also depends on health and fitness (not the time how long you aim).

If you stand, or kneel, the weaponsway is there (standing has more shake), you can hold the breath and elliminate the vertical movement, but a bit of confusing shaking (no specific direction) is there.
The longer you aim, the more the weaponsway happens. So resting is a needed option (unaim, or if possible hold the rifle sideways).

If you prone it will eliminate the sway/shake, but the breath is still there and needs to be holded.

Note, that the faster you aim, the more accurate you use the sniperrifle.


Fast aiming
As in real life, fast aiming allows you to shoot accurate on not to far distances from standing. You have the rifle down, shoulder it fast, aim and shoot, that will be a great accurassy.

Aiming on near distances
If distance is near, the sway is not to problematic and sniping from standing is possible (of course kneeling gives even more accurassy).

Larger distances
If you aim and try to mark the target with the crosshair and wait for the right moment, you better prone, if distance is not to small.


That means if you hold breath, or shoot between the breathing, you can snipe accurate and fast on closer distances from a standing position, even if the sway increases.

If you snipe on longer distances from standing, you need to do it fast, or it will get harder and harder, due to the increasing sway and armshake.
To snipe accurate on those distances, better prone (of course kneeling gives you better accurassy than standing).

If you snipe on large distances, you need to prone. The single chance to get a hit from standing and kneeling is a lucky fastaimed shot.

! The time of increasing armshake and the grade of shaking depends on the weight of the sniperrifle.

Thats funny, cuz most ppl choose the PSG1 on close sniping, due to the semiauto, but a lighter M24 would give a much better accurassy in sniping while standing, or kneeling and you would have more time to aim, due to the less increasing shake in comparison to the PSG1.
Sure an assaultrifle with acog is a good option there, but it has less power and worse ballistics AND a worse scope. A scoped battlerifle would have near same weight as the M24, but less range, plus worse scope.
An M24 has it´s advantage in comparison to scoped battlerifles, the magnification, weight, and ballistic.


And it is very important to have real sniperscopes with adjustable magnification for all sniperrifles that have such scope (not only Robar).

Oh and an effective (even if simple) rangemeasuring training with the reticule marks (dunno how called) would be great.

 

[Blitzschlag]

What i would like too see is a system like in Joint Operations, where u can focus thedistance.

 

[Derelan]

I agree that the weaponsway if breathing is to big (if not injured, or tired as hell) and the weaponsway if holded breath is to small.

I´m not an scope expert, but I think in real life it works that way (as should work in INF):
1) You can hold the sniperrifle accurate, but they is always a weaponsway, that behaves like little shake (the intensitivity depends on your health, fitness and the time how long you aim the sniperrifle).
The shake start to increase after the beginning of aiming (not to fast if your health is ok, but it happens).
2) The breath, just should let the crosshair moving up and down a bit (similar to AA:O), the intensitivity also depends on health and fitness (not the time how long you aim).

If you stand, or kneel, the weaponsway is there (standing has more shake), you can hold the breath and elliminate the vertical movement, but a bit of confusing shaking (no specific direction) is there.
The longer you aim, the more the weaponsway happens. So resting is a needed option (unaim, or if possible hold the rifle sideways).

If you prone it will eliminate the sway/shake, but the breath is still there and needs to be holded.

Note, that the faster you aim, the more accurate you use the sniperrifle.


Fast aiming
As in real life, fast aiming allows you to shoot accurate on not to far distances from standing. You have the rifle down, shoulder it fast, aim and shoot, that will be a great accurassy.

Aiming on near distances
If distance is near, the sway is not to problematic and sniping from standing is possible (of course kneeling gives even more accurassy).

Larger distances
If you aim and try to mark the target with the crosshair and wait for the right moment, you better prone, if distance is not to small.


That means if you hold breath, or shoot between the breathing, you can snipe accurate and fast on closer distances from a standing position, even if the sway increases.

If you snipe on longer distances from standing, you need to do it fast, or it will get harder and harder, due to the increasing sway and armshake.
To snipe accurate on those distances, better prone (of course kneeling gives you better accurassy than standing).

If you snipe on large distances, you need to prone. The single chance to get a hit from standing and kneeling is a lucky fastaimed shot.

! The time of increasing armshake and the grade of shaking depends on the weight of the sniperrifle.

Thats funny, cuz most ppl choose the PSG1 on close sniping, due to the semiauto, but a lighter M24 would give a much better accurassy in sniping while standing, or kneeling and you would have more time to aim, due to the less increasing shake in comparison to the PSG1.
Sure an assaultrifle with acog is a good option there, but it has less power and worse ballistics AND a worse scope. A scoped battlerifle would have near same weight as the M24, but less range, plus worse scope.
An M24 has it´s advantage in comparison to scoped battlerifles, the magnification, weight, and ballistic.


And it is very important to have real sniperscopes with adjustable magnification for all sniperrifles that have such scope (not only Robar).

Oh and an effective (even if simple) rangemeasuring training with the reticule marks (dunno how called) would be great.

Oh, psychomorph, don't you have an opinion on anything that can be expressed in less than 500 words?

 

[Blitzschlag]

Oh, psychomorph, don't you have an opinion on anything that can be expressed in less than 500 words?

Did u count them???

 

[Ravenwing]

What i would like too see is a system like in Joint Operations, where u can focus thedistance.

You can't have played JO in some time - they took the variable zoom on sniper rifles out in a patch a while ago.

 

[Psychomorph]

Thx for counting my word derelan. Kinda no, I can´t type it in less words.

 

[N'kEnNy]

As a newbie, or rather sucky player, I agree with all the comments above relating to the current scope system.

A scope isn't particluary hard to use in Infiltration, but a combination of things (lag, sway, whatnots) result in rather obscure and hard to understand/predict hit spread.

The consiquence is that I always burst while using the scope, as single-shots simply never hit in my case. Which might say more about me than scopes. heh.

---

Still the point still stands, during 2.87 I never really used scopes. (because everyone did) But with the release of the G36k I've come to realise and recognize the tactical asset such an addon actually represents.

Currently in the world of Infiltration its an excellent spotting tool, but not very nice shooting tool.

 

[Vega-don]

i hardly use the scope because i miss the target often , even with hold breath. i think they should be made easier.

the first problem i have is predicting ping to shoot a moving player,
the second is player hitboxes when prone, lean, i often cant shoot them

i think that a skilled sniper, for example antkilla (you f... B... kill me with your f..... psg1), about how to manage ping and moving players, where to aim on a prone player, on a leaning player. because what makes many snipers miss is many times the bugs of the game. the crosshair is right on the target but nothing happens

and i know that crowse is working on having the acogs more realists.

 

[- Lich -]

The scopes are not bad as they are. They need training, and I think it is correct. The problem with a lot of players missing with these may be the point they have tons of other stuff carrying around (I cannot hit much with a short stamina bar, even while holding my breath) and do not remember that these guns are NOT zeroed at 100m. The only thing making sniping more *interesting* is RT.

 

[Vega-don]

the problem with me missing is not due to that (well maybe the zero, but the ballistics seemed to work only in the range)
its ping, and hit detection.

the problem is the training mostly consists of learning how to get rid of the bugs and get used to the ping. i remember being a good sniper in 2.86, rav2 , because i learned the "game". but now with 2.9 ,the player hit seems different, and my shot misses.
and its not cool that a newbie has a disadvantage because he doesnt knows "the game", even with knowing how to snipe perfectly.

 

[- Lich -]

...and its not cool that a newbie has a disadvantage because he doesnt knows "the game", even with knowing how to snipe perfectly.

The hit detection... yes it changed, but it got more accurate. Sure you do not hit much when you are used to a larger hit detection system. I remember how it felt in the beginning of bulletsounds4. I could not hit much. But after getting used to it (read: training) it worked. Think that is not too different from real life. Getting used to the gun, where it shoots and stuff.

Well, you are right...some how. But I must say I like it on the other hand that you cannot play INF well right from the start when you know other similar games perfectly. And I think it is the case not only in INF, you have to know the game to be good at it.
It is not nice that a real life sniper sucks in the beginning, but well, they have some advantages: they have the patience to manage it and the right tactical feeling for useful ways of sniping.