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Recon and Voice Communications - An "Old School" Observation

Discussion in 'General Infiltration Discussion' started by LifesBane(4Corners), Mar 21, 2001.

  1. LifesBane(4Corners)

    LifesBane(4Corners) Active Member

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    Hello,

    Many of you know me. Many of you don't. I don't post on these boards too often. But, I've been here. For QUITE a long time :) I started playing I think at about INF 2.5...you know, back in the days where a detonated Claymore would change the map or drop the server :)

    Recently, I've been hearing a lot of complaining about "Recon". This is where the dead individuals fly through the level and, using Team Chat or RW,etc, give out the enemies location.

    Guys, one thing to say:
    Stop complaining :)

    You think this is bad? Prior to 2.75, you could actually SELECT the enemies view when you click to cycle through. 2.75 had a radar.

    Recon is to INF as food is to a plate. If recon was taken out, it'd be like baking an apple pie-- without apples. Well, not really, but it's just an analogy :p

    The main reason I hear complaints about recon is that it gives an unfair advantage to the player who's position is being given out.

    But, this is 100% UNTRUE. I have seen MANY a perfect match to explain this. 5 on 5 to start the round. 2 minutes later, it's 1 on 4. The team that has 4 people left starts giving out recon. But guess what -- The team with only the single individual wins.

    Guess what: It's not that hard! Go ahead! If you see me in game, TELL everyone where I am-- In fact, send your whole team after me! All it will do is A) Prevent 2 hour rounds from happening and B)Let me get more kills, and quicker :)

    Now, let me get on to the community aspect of this situation.

    First off, what is a MOD without a community of people playing it? Not much. Many of us in the olden days helped develope INF to what it is today. How? Bugs, feedback, and just plain playing it and keeping it alive. You know that really old dinosaur of a game, Unreal 1? Well, Infiltration 2.6 on Unreal 1 still has a strong following of players -- To this day!

    Well, in any community, there are unrwitten "ideals"; you know, what is acceptable and forbiden to do. Although the gameplay through-out the main INF versions changes, the ideals stay the same...if anything, more are just added in. Well, I'll tell you right off the bat: In INF 2.6 and prior, recon was not only ACCEPTABLE, you got flamed if you DIDN'T give it :) As I said earlier, recon + INF goes hand in hand.

    We, the "Old Schoolers" in INF wish to keep these ideals and bring them on to the new community. As this whole post is stressing, one of those is recon. Ask ANY "Old School" INF player (2.75 doesn't count), and I can almost garuntee that most of them SUPPORT recon.

    I've seen many a post where the following is insinuated: "Well, Counter Strike has it right, where dead playeres can't talk to live players", or other similar. Well, this is NOT CounterStrike, nor is it "striving" to be :)

    So. To sum this whole post up?
    Keep Recon.

    --==**LifesBane[4C]**==--
    Want to learn how to map? Email me!
     
  2. TheViper

    TheViper Beta Busta

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    Nice post, 'Bane

    And good to see you here. You should hang out here more often.

    -- Vipe -- [​IMG]

    -- LIVE FREE OR DIE --
     
  3. Dracil

    Dracil First Poster of new INF forums

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    Hmm.... alright, I have only been here since 2.7, so I will and must cede any points on what "old school" people think. However, I do have one point I wish to make on this issue.

    Old school Infiltration used crosshairs, we took that out in Infiltration to make it more realistic. Old school Infiltration uses Ghost Recon, why can't we take that out to make it more realistic too?

    [​IMG]
     
  4. LifesBane(4Corners)

    LifesBane(4Corners) Active Member

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    IMHO, crosshairs being taken out is really easy to get used...not all the weapons in INF 2.6 and before had crosshairs, anyway. Also, the new models have working aiming recipticle built into the models...so basically, crosshairs are still in :)
    Something like recon is a much larger thing in the grand scheme of things. My opinnion is still unwavering. Recon belongs in INF :)

    --==**LifesBane[4C]**==--
    Want to learn how to map? Email me!
     
  5. shmookid

    shmookid Guest

    So I say or should I go...

    The problem I have is that no where is it offically written that recon is accepted. I never see people doing recon when I play (mostly on SOB and SK servers) but I know it is probably happening because lots of people are using RW and others not the text messaging. So if I type in recon sometimes I get yelled at and sometimes I do not. Since I am a newer INF player I do not want to cause trouble so I just keep my mouth shut and play. I am still undecided on the recon issue I just know that for me silence is the best course until I find a INF clan/team that wants me to play with them and/or I get more of my friends using RW with me.

    "No Matter where you go, there you are!"
    - Buckaroo Bonzai

    Shannon "Shmoo" Thompson
     
  6. gpk

    gpk bah!

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  7. Meshuggah

    Meshuggah New Member

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    Thank you LifesBane. I've also been playimg INF since 2.6, And recon is acceptable to me. I see it as common practice, and good teamwork.

    If you have the better TEAM and are getting info and the other poor fools team doesn't help him out, and you kill him, who is the better team?

    I yes, I get pissed when I don't get any recon, which I usually don't on 2.85.

    and on A side note, since I was thinking about 2.6, WHEN IS SOMEBODY GOING TO PORT INF_GHETTO to UT!?!?!

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Dracil

    Dracil First Poster of new INF forums

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    There is also a thread in the GENERAL forum that was started two days before the online one. There is now 4+ threads about this topic. Can we please not make anymore?

    [​IMG]
     
  9. LifesBane(4Corners)

    LifesBane(4Corners) Active Member

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    Please note though, that this thread, although about the same issue, has a completely different approach to the topic.

    --==**LifesBane[4C]**==--
    Want to learn how to map? Email me!
     
  10. Spleen

    Spleen Contact Belltower Window!

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    OLD SCHOOL?!

    Man, dont make me laugh.

    Im old school.. I played Head to head internet doom on dwango, and did the quakeworld clan circuit. Its funny how "recon" is accepted by so many Inf folks and yet considered CHEATING in every other game. "recon" if found to be occuring in your clan would get you kicked out of OGL and pretty much every other gaming ladder because its NOT REALISTIC. Every other game thats considered "unrealistic" by the Inf crowd spurns this activity.. "Recon" is totally unrealistic.. It has the same lame-factor as the stupid radar.

    Rogue Spear does it best.. When your dead, YOUR DEAD.. You lay in darkness untill the game is over. I personally think Inf should be the same.. If your too impatient for this then likely your too impatient for real combat and Inf. Go play Gore, or Quake or Operation Flashpoint but dont take the one game on the net that tries to be as real as possible and say "recon" (can we just call it cheating?) should be accepted.. You have missed the entire theme of this mod if you think its ok.

    I recommend treating death like its done in Rogue Spear, DEATH = DARKNESS

    This whole thread makes me sick.
     
  11. TheSniper

    TheSniper Guest

    I do alot of sniping as u can see by my name. And I really cant see the fun in this recon stuff.

    For exampel im in a good sniping spot and get a kill. I sure dont want that guy telling his teammates where I am, and later getting a grenade up my ass.

    Point is that dead people dont talk, atleast I dont think they do.
     
  12. LifesBane(4Corners)

    LifesBane(4Corners) Active Member

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  13. Spleen

    Spleen Contact Belltower Window!

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    dont make me laugh

    There is more unknown than known in combat.

    Never will a satellite tell a soldier "Dude he is above you in the closet"

    Your attitude is that soldiers know the location of the enemy at all times... Totally false. Rarely if ever is this true. Your just really trying hard to justify a totally unrealistic behavior in a game that strives to be totally realistic. Ill stop playing before I stoop to something so unrealistic. Lastly, Id love to hear Shakken, Warren and the other Inf Teams thoughts on this. I suspect they totally agree with my views.
     
  14. Cuchullain

    Cuchullain New Member

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    Spleen, you're a wuss

    It's integral to Infiltration to have recon. It speeds the game up and IMHO realistic. When was the last time where you did hear of fire teams sharing info? In a military action you can bet there would be more than 16 people on the field. You're going to have observers and active units spread around the field.

    Besides, you can only direct a player to the general area of conflict. You can't tell him where to aim, what weapon to use or setup for a higher frame rate for accuracy. Things happen too fast. And if you're hiding in some corner, (Are you a hider Spleen?) the rest of us dead people want to see you dead too. You're there to play a game. Realism or no, it's still just a game. Something I do in my spare time. I don't have time to watch people cower in the corner.

    So, recon away guys!

    If you're so sick of this thread why did you re-post?

    Flame away guys...

    (PS: Hiding and camping have two different meanings in my vocab...but that's another thread.)

    I BELIEVE IN GREATER ACCURACY THROUGH VOLUME!!
     
  15. Meshuggah

    Meshuggah New Member

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    I believe in you chuchillian

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Spleen

    Spleen Contact Belltower Window!

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    wuss?

    Real nice, get personal. Usually a tactic performed by someone who has no faith in their logic behind their argument. I wont stoop to it.

    I can hardly allow you to compare a ghost flying around a map telling teammates the location of hidden enemy anything near realistic! This has nothing to do with "hiding." It has to do with the military term "ambush." Somthing that "recon" makes totally impossible. Is it really your goal to make something as integral in combat as an "ambush" completly obsolete in a game that strives to be as real as possible? Well, you are doing a damn good job of it!!

    At least Im not delusional.

    I guess this is the break point between the hardcore realism people who view this as a simulation and those who view it as a game where the realism can be bent to make it "quicker" Sorry dude but sometimes real life isnt "quick" sometimes combat is a game of cat and mouse with high tension..

    Again.. This is quickly becoming a division point in this game..

    Lets define recon as what it is NOT. It is not remotely akin to "forward observer" Last I looked forward observers dont "fly" around the map totally invisible to the enemy.

    Let me quote you.

    "When was the last time where you did hear of fire teams sharing info?"

    Fire teams DO share info in infiltration, its called a radio.. I see an enemy I let my team know about it. HOWEVER ONCE I DIE.. I DONT SEE ANY ENEMY.. To continue to "fly" around the map, and point out enemy to my team is supernatural, NOT realistic.


    "In a military action you can bet there would be more than 16 people on the field. You're going to have observers and active units spread around the field."

    I agree but those people on the field are not invisible and "flying" around the Map! lol. (is he on drugs??)

    Maybe the big misunderstanding here is that we are defining "recon" differently. I am under the impression your saying its ok and legal if once you have died to "fly" around the map and without risk to yourself, take a birds eye view above the map (ya know just float like an angel) and report enemy locations to your teammates via chat or voice over net. Reasons this is totally unrealistic.

    1) No risk involved.. Real scouts or recon members are not dead.. They have very possible risk involved and ONCE THEY ARE DEAD THEY DONT REPORT BACK TO BASE!!

    2)Unrealistic movement - last I checked recon units or scouts dont "fly" around a map, they dont have hovercrafts or wings, or little red dragons they fly over Sicily on spotting out enemies.

    3)Recon doesnt increase as your teammates die - that is, when the game starts you have no recon, as teammates begin to die your level of recon increases because more of your teammates are flying around the map. TOTALLY UNREALISTIC.

    4)Sometimes it really is one against many.. With recon its NEVER one against many.

    5)Surprise is an element one must always try to impose on the enemy when attacking. "ghosting" (I refuse to call it recon anymore) if done well, completely eleminates any chance of surprising the enemy.

    6)Army Field Manual defines "recon" very differently than you do. It says nothing about "dead men flying around the FLOT giving teammates detailed locations of enemies"

    7)If the INF team wanted there to be satellite recon fed to the soldiers it should be built into the game, NOT used as a sorry excuse to subsitute ghosting for "recon"

    8)In real combat sometimes hiding is the best thing you can do. The game timer is the fail safe when a soldier feels this is the best course of action. Ghosting should not seek to eliminate an action that many times is wise simply to "speed up the game" nor should this be an excuse to justify its action.

    9)You cant shoot the recon. In real life if there is recon observing you, you have a small chance of hunting down and killing them.. IN Inf if people are ghosting you you have NO CHANCE of hunting them down and killing them.. TOTALLY UNREALISTIC

    and the number 10 reason ghosting shouldnt be used in Inf.

    10) Dead men tell no tales!

    Now, instead of calling me a wuss, getting personal and trying to throw off my game, why dont you put down an argument of why you think dead guys flying around the map tellign the living counterparts where the enemy is lurking via "godphone" should be allowed in a game that is striving very hard to be the most realistic portrayal of infantry combat on the internet. A portrayal thats taken so seriously that many of its players refuse to call it a "game" and instead refer to it as a simulation. If its a simulation, then its biggest threat by far are those who wish to ruin it with unrealistic actions to suit their own selfish needs.


    Lastly, in my profession I am frequently forced to deal with things that "sicken" me, but that doesnt keep me from diving right in just because I dont find the topic savory... In fact it usually motivates me to try and clean the scurge. This my reason for continuing to post on this thread. Does that answer your question? Or do I need to make it easier to understand?
     
  17. Dracil

    Dracil First Poster of new INF forums

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  18. LifesBane(4Corners)

    LifesBane(4Corners) Active Member

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    Okay, Spleen, if you woud've read the WHOLE thread I posted, you would've noticed something.

    Yes, I agreed that Infiltration is a Realism MOD. But what you don't understand, seemingly, is that INF is a game. And never in a game do you sacrifice gameplay! Yes, realism is good. BUT, only to a point. With that, I close all of my future remarks to this thread.

    --==**LifesBane[4C]**==--
    Want to learn how to map? Email me!
     
  19. Spleen

    Spleen Contact Belltower Window!

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    Did read your whole post. My argument stands.

    If this is the stance your going to take, you might as well enable the radar, its no different. Hell, its better at least the radar cant tell you what weapon the enemy has, and which way he is pointing.

    I guess I would expect this kind of action in quake or CS but in a mod that supposedly attracts realism nuts, it really suprises me..
     
  20. I_ABuGa

    I_ABuGa Vetran

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    Spleen man, cool it. You're running around waving madly. If you disagree strongly with something just post reasonably. No need to get insulting and rude.

    If people respond to your post negatively, just read back and you'll see you werent all that polite. Now let's all calm down. Bane is one of us and so are you, I'll be damned if I let you guys go at eahc others throats over such a small matter.
     

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