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Political threads

  • Neocons

    Votes: 28 100.0%

  • Total voters
    28

GRAF1K

****** Kamikaze
Oct 16, 2003
874
0
0
Gay marriage, abortion, the war on drugs! As enticingly dramatic as all this is, please remember this fundamental truth:

Governments were not established for your benefit.

Governments are established by wealthy people to protect their power. Sure, the U.S. constitution sounds nice, until you realize that it was a group of rich, white slave owners that declared "all men are created equal." You can fight the system all you like and maybe get some small concessions. The government is still not on your side. The game is unwinnable by design.

Tolerate them if you must, but please don't play their game. It makes me cry inside.
 

dragonfliet

I write stuffs
Apr 24, 2006
3,754
31
48
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Anyone that believes they would be better off without governments is an idiot. So, sure, perhaps it wasn't created FOR my benefit, but it benefits the people in general it should be made (through force if necessary) to continue to benefit them.

~Jason
 

kiff

That guy from Texas. Give me some Cash
Jan 19, 2008
3,793
0
0
Tx.
www.desert-conflict.org
white slave owners that declared "all men are created equal."
before you post such blatant ignorance, please read a history book.

Most of our founders were not slave owners and were abolitionists. Jefferson, one of them that was a slave owner, mortgaged his property to buy and free them.
 
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-AEnubis-

fps greater than star
Dec 7, 2000
3,298
0
36
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The Nicest Parts of Hell
Well, today's history books flagrantly lack a lot of information...

Our constitution was established with the intent to serve the people, just as this country was birthed under the idea of escaping class prejudices and tyranny of the rich.

The rich, however, caught back up with us.

Don't mistaken what is today, for what was intended so many years ago. Our forefathers did it right, and those ten amendments are protecting us from a lot more than most people can imagine.
 

GRAF1K

****** Kamikaze
Oct 16, 2003
874
0
0
Anyone that believes they would be better off without governments is an idiot.

I expect you'd admit that sounds pretty dogmatic. I don't have to argue it for the sake of my point, though. A person can benefit from a government without wasting time and energy on politics.

before you post such blatant ignorance, please read a history book.

A People's History of the United States does a good job of framing documents such as the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights in proper perspective.
 

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
26,020
83
48
A People's History of the United States does a good job of framing documents such as the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights in proper perspective.
Uhhh... this book is actually not that great at framing anything about the foundation of the USA. It's very left-leaning and essentially ignores any topic that doesn't fall into its angle. Not saying most textbooks are any better, but can't we find a better source of information, particularly one that has adequately cited sources?

Honestly, reading through some of the reviews right on Amazon I can see that a lot of other people agree with that assessment. It's good for critical thinking, but horrible for historical importance.
 

-AEnubis-

fps greater than star
Dec 7, 2000
3,298
0
36
43
The Nicest Parts of Hell
Ew, the "s" word.

Haven't read that book, but listening to some speeches of his on google, and he has good ideas, but seems ill informed as to realistic means of achieving them, as such, I can't imagine his writ of history is as in depth as it could be.
 

dragonfliet

I write stuffs
Apr 24, 2006
3,754
31
48
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Uhhh... this book is actually not that great at framing anything about the foundation of the USA. It's very left-leaning and essentially ignores any topic that doesn't fall into its angle. Not saying most textbooks are any better, but can't we find a better source of information, particularly one that has adequately cited sources?

Honestly, reading through some of the reviews right on Amazon I can see that a lot of other people agree with that assessment. It's good for critical thinking, but horrible for historical importance.

What he said. It's a very good book and well worth reading, but isn't so much a proper account of history so much as it is using history to explain a rhetorical position. I remember there being something similar to this book (that was written partially in response to it) that examines history of a similar time period through the opposite type of lens; though I haven't read that one (too much American History makes me zzzzzz).

~Jason
 

GRAF1K

****** Kamikaze
Oct 16, 2003
874
0
0
essentially ignores any topic that doesn't fall into its angle

Yes, the aim of the book is to tell "the other side," so your point is true. The most useful bit I took from it, and the one most applicable to this discussion, is that the purpose of government is usually not to help the people. "We the people" means a different group than you and I.

I can't imagine involving myself in a system designed to help a 2% group that I'm not a part of.
 

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
26,020
83
48
What he said. It's a very good book and well worth reading, but isn't so much a proper account of history so much as it is using history to explain a rhetorical position. I remember there being something similar to this book (that was written partially in response to it) that examines history of a similar time period through the opposite type of lens; though I haven't read that one (too much American History makes me zzzzzz).

~Jason
You might be thinking of "A Patriot's History of the United States", which is similarly veined. Written from a contradicting viewpoint and mentioning the other book several times. I found this one a little more balanced (at least they don't neglect mentioning failing in the Conservative viewpoint or successes among Liberals), but still decidedly one way. The nice thing about this book is that later editions actually fixed some historical errors in the first editions.
 

-AEnubis-

fps greater than star
Dec 7, 2000
3,298
0
36
43
The Nicest Parts of Hell
Yes, the aim of the book is to tell "the other side," so your point is true. The most useful bit I took from it, and the one most applicable to this discussion, is that the purpose of government is usually not to help the people. "We the people" means a different group than you and I.

I can't imagine involving myself in a system designed to help a 2% group that I'm not a part of.

Again, you sound like you've developed a "belief" that it was written that way. Our current government has passed so many amendments and executive orders that, in essence "****" on the constitution, and as such, it stands to reason that if that same mind set was what wrote the original bill of rights, why would they have to pussy foot and amend it so diligently today? They wouldn't need to. It would have been written better to serve their purpose out the gate.

"Of the people, for the people, by the people." Really isn't anything metaphorical there. These aforementioned amendments are greater attacks to our freedom than any terrorist group the same politicians that write these things will tell you about. That bill of rights is the main hurdle that stands between our supposed "freedom" and being in a full blown police state.
 

Larkin

Gone
Apr 4, 2006
1,984
0
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41
Anyone that believes they would be better off without governments is an idiot. So, sure, perhaps it wasn't created FOR my benefit, but it benefits the people in general it should be made (through force if necessary) to continue to benefit them.

~Jason

I will only say this once more...

If you believe that force applied to the people by governments hand is a good thing then I believe you have no knowledge of history, of liberty or freedom. If you really understand what history says and what liberty and freedom means then you would never say that force brings benefits to the people.

And government only brings benefits to the people when used to protect their safety and then only in limit cases.

Once people understand that great power in the governments hand will always lead to serfdom then the world will truly advance.

Anyone that thinks government supports them, benefits them, can give them equality can give them anything beneficial lacks the facts they need to be even involved in these debates. When they pretend to give you equality they are indeed taking control to give off this illusion. When they regulate something they take that control out of your your hands and put in their own hands. When they give you things they aren't giving you liberty or freedom or equality, but stripping your freedom, liberty, your control, but are indeed giving you equality. Equality in owning nothing, in having nothing, in being nothing. You seem to know so little about history of the world, the reality of the world. The unchanging undeniable facts that will never change no matter how many times you try it. It just makes me so very sad inside.

Oh well, you're a lost cause and I suck at debating. No need to go further with you.

As for the war on drugs, global warming, war on terror, most regulations, etc. Its really this simple. They need an enemy to fight and someone/something to demonize to gain control. There is very little truth in any of those wars if anything at all in reality, but as long as they can make people believe action must be taken they have the power to take everything from you. Even if there is nothing untrue in their argument, you should never accept the idea they can fix it.

Btw, governments were created for protection from enemy nations. Not anything for caring for people, or equality, or making sure life is safe, or has justice or giving money, or anything else you can think of. Also, society was not formed to care for each other, but instead personal survival. The only reason people in society helped each other was for their own personal survival.

Oh and I love this quote. You can figure out how it applies on your own.

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

It beyond my understanding how people can't understand that personal responsibility can not be replaced. It is something you live and die by only. It can not be thrown to the side and have any sort of liberty still present. That lesson has been taught so many times by now it has to be nothing but ignorance that people can't see it. It just has to be.
 
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dragonfliet

I write stuffs
Apr 24, 2006
3,754
31
48
41
Oh Larkin, you've been mostly absent and our threads hadn't been full of your idiocy. Luckily you're back and our collective IQ has gone back down 20 points.
 

Larkin

Gone
Apr 4, 2006
1,984
0
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Oh Larkin, you've been mostly absent and our threads hadn't been full of your idiocy. Luckily you're back and our collective IQ has gone back down 20 points.

Hi, American liberal point. It might look like just an insult, but don't be confused, it has substance.
 

Big-Al

amateur de bière
Jun 14, 2003
8,579
33
48
40
Under a black flag.
www.ttrgame.com
Gay marriage, abortion, the war on drugs! As enticingly dramatic as all this is, please remember this fundamental truth:

Governments were not established for your benefit.

Governments are established by wealthy people to protect their power. Sure, the U.S. constitution sounds nice, until you realize that it was a group of rich, white slave owners that declared "all men are created equal." You can fight the system all you like and maybe get some small concessions. The government is still not on your side. The game is unwinnable by design.

Tolerate them if you must, but please don't play their game. It makes me cry inside.

restecp
 

kiff

That guy from Texas. Give me some Cash
Jan 19, 2008
3,793
0
0
Tx.
www.desert-conflict.org
Anyone that believes they would be better off without governments is an idiot. So, sure, perhaps it wasn't created FOR my benefit, but it benefits the people in general it should be made (through force if necessary) to continue to benefit them.
If you believe that force applied to the people by governments hand is a good thing then
I'm pretty sure (99% area) that he's saying the ppl should use force on the gvt., not the other way around