Property damage

[oosyxxx]

I was with a friend at a park and there was a wooden railing that kept people from going over a cliff as we were at something that resembled a mountain. I carved something small and barely noticeable into the wooden railing in the vicinity of other similar carvings from other people. Mind you, this park was public property. The wooden railing, then, I guess, would be considered public property.

Do you think my act of carving should qualify as an actionable commission of property damage? Should the state be able to sue me for monetary damages and/or prosecute me in criminal court under the guise of my having deliberately committed property damage?

My friend thinks I committed property damage, lacked the right to do what I did and would in fact lose in court were it to come to that. I reasoned that carving one's name or initials or little artwork or whatever into public benches, railings, etc., is a bit of a time honored tradition, and sometimes it's even a cute reminder of how beautiful man's art can be. Additionally, I don't think what I carved would require the state to replace the railing since if they were going to replace the railing because of property damage they would have already done so because there was already lots of stuff carved in that railing and it would've already qualified as having been "defaced." My carving alone, I assure you, did not damage the property enough to justify replacing it. It's like if a car blows up and becomes completely unsalvageable except for scrap, a kick to the tires does not qualify as property damage because the car had at that point already passed the point of no return.

It seems to me that the theory of property damage is often based on visibility of damage. Brushing against a car with your jeans, not causing any visible marks, might change the physical makeup of the paint but not enough to justify taking someone to court over it.

Do you think my actions are defensible, or do you think I should have to pay a fine and/or serve some form of retribution?

 

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[QUALTHWAR]

There are at least 2 things going on here, and you’re probably wrong on both accounts. I’d say it’s probably illegal to deface public property.

The other issue is one that’s taught in ethics class. A person has the right to do something, as long as it’s not illegal or immoral, if it doesn’t infringe upon the rights of others. For example, there’s a lady who sings a few words now and then in my office. It’s wrong. It’s wrong because it infringes on my rights. I don’t want to hear her sing.

The other thing is it’s taking money out of my boss’s pockets. That’s because if I’m working on something difficult (looping through programming code) I have to keep starting over.

So if people find graffiti and carvings tacky, you are infringing on their rights in a way. But then how far do you take that? I think many bumper stickers are opinionated. I usually don’t give a **** if something thinks abortion is wrong, or people should vote for this yahoot or that one. I don’t want to see the stickers, but do I have the right to tell people to scrape them off their bumper? No.

 

[Cat Fuzz]

I would say that you were wrong to carve on the railing. The reason being, it starts something. Someone else comes along and also carves something small. The next thing you know, the entire railing is carved up by hundreds of small 'harmless' carvings.

I had a group while I was tour bus driving that was visiting Seattle. They went to the new Olympic Sculpture Park. It's an outdoor collection of large pieces of art. There are signs that explicitly forbid touching the artwork. A couple of girls in my group spaced off and rubbed words with their finger tips into the oxidized paint on one of the sculptures. They got in huge trouble by park security and were charged with vandalism and graffiti. It was a tiny mark but they had to come down hard on them because their fear is that the sculptures could very soon be covered with tiny little expressions and thus ruined. The girls parents were also charged with the cost of having the artist return and repair the damage.

You should be burned at the stake.

 

[Rukee]

It`s only wrong if you get caught.

 

[oosyxxx]

Yeah, it probably is illegal to deface public property. I figured since it had already been defaced, and since such defacing didn't impact the functionality of the railing, my action boiled down to insignificant aesthetic vandalism, but then I thought that since that very railing already had many other acts of minor vandalism on it that preceded my contribution, one more wasn't going to cause an appreciable quantitative increase in disgust in those who tend to get disgusted by such things. How was my action infringing upon anyone else's rights? You could make the case that I didn't have the right in the first place to deface the railing, but neither did my fore-defacers, and once they defaced it, it had lost its original face and therefore would no longer be eligible for the same degree of defacing, which is, I contend, now gone forever barring a refinishing or outright replacement of the rail.

There are at least 2 things going on here, and you’re probably wrong on both accounts. I’d say it’s probably illegal to deface public property.

The other issue is one that’s taught in ethics class. A person has the right to do something, as long as it’s not illegal or immoral, if it doesn’t infringe upon the rights of others. For example, there’s a lady who sings a few words now and then in my office. It’s wrong. It’s wrong because it infringes on my rights. I don’t want to hear her sing.

The other thing is it’s taking money out of my boss’s pockets. That’s because if I’m working on something difficult (looping through programming code) I have to keep starting over.

So if people find graffiti and carvings tacky, you are infringing on their rights in a way. But then how far do you take that? I think many bumper stickers are opinionated. I usually don’t give a **** if something thinks abortion is wrong, or people should vote for this yahoot or that one. I don’t want to see the stickers, but do I have the right to tell people to scrape them off their bumper? No.

 

[oosyxxx]

... but I didn't start something; I was one of the people who came along later and decided to add to what had essentially become a living open-source collage. I think what I did was ultimately a bit disrespectful, but only a bit, and certainly far less disrespectful than tainting a sculpture that's displayed for its beauty. It doesn't seem like you can quantify any harm I may have caused, or can you?

I would say that you were wrong to carve on the railing. The reason being, it starts something. Someone else comes along and also carves something small. The next thing you know, the entire railing is carved up by hundreds of small 'harmless' carvings.

I had a group while I was tour bus driving that was visiting Seattle. They went to the new Olympic Sculpture Park. It's an outdoor collection of large pieces of art. There are signs that explicitly forbid touching the artwork. A couple of girls in my group spaced off and rubbed words with their finger tips into the oxidized paint on one of the sculptures. They got in huge trouble by park security and were charged with vandalism and graffiti. It was a tiny mark but they had to come down hard on them because their fear is that the sculptures could very soon be covered with tiny little expressions and thus ruined. The girls parents were also charged with the cost of having the artist return and repair the damage.

You should be burned at the stake.

 

[oosyxxx]

It`s only wrong if you get caught.

Ah, my conscience is now forever in your debt.

 

[Cat Fuzz]

Bestest thred evar!

 

[QUALTHWAR]

Well, I wasn’t there and didn’t see the railing; where it was, what it looked like, if people were walking past it or driving. Law is usually an on/off switch, but there are exceptions. If you come up to a stop sign and make a right turn without stopping and the cops pull you over and give you a ticket, what’s your defense? Are you going to tell them that everyone ahead of you did the same thing and got away with it? No matter how many people do it, it’s wrong if it’s illegal.

It could be argued that you’re infringing on other’s rights because you’re mucking up the main reason they are there. A lot of people go to the parks because they want to get away from the city, commercialism, midgets on tiny go-carts, and skyscrapers. They want to get back to nature. If people are walking a trail, for example, admiring nature and see maybe a railing painted green to blend in with the surroundings, it doesn’t take away from their experience significantly. However, if they see a railing that’s been carved up with initials, etc., it may move them from their experience and they’re one step closer to being back in the rat race.

There has to be some old folks walking by there and going, “Look at that. That’s just terrible.” Lol. But most or all of us have done something similar. I’ve carved my initials in a tree before along with the girl I was dating. That’s most likely healed up by now, though.

I just thought of something. I used to eat my lunch at a picnic table in a park next to where I work. Sometimes people would carve (or usually write with marker) crap on it. I didn’t care if gay Jay wanted to suck the seeds from my birdbath or not. I didn’t write down his number, memorize, or text message it to myself. Heck, it didn’t even look like a local number. But I digress; go back there when you have more time and whittle the rail into the shape of a shlong. If you’re going to **** with people, do it right.

 

[Cat Fuzz]

I hereby nominate Qualthwar to host the Tonight Show. even though I haven't seen it since Johnny Carson left.

 

[QUALTHWAR]

Johnny left? Oh, that doesn't sound good.

 

[Cat Fuzz]

Who's Johnny Left? Aren't you paying attention?

 

[militaryspetproject]

Sorry man... Conan is taking over the tonight show!

 

[Cat Fuzz]

That's just great. A friggin' barbarian can do a talk show but here I am wrenching on cars for a living.

 

[QUALTHWAR]

Johnny Carson had Thermoknobobia - The fear of running full speed into a cold door knob. i have Phobophobia - Fear of phobias.

 

[The Purple Bunny]

I carved my name into this guy's leg once. He was a real baby about it. Talking about "OH MY GOD!" and "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!" and "SOMEONE HELP ME!" His constant moving ruined the work I did too. Can't get good help these days.

 

[Cat Fuzz]

I hate that! You just want to claim someone as your property by permanently branding them with a sharp object and they get all fussy-baby about it.

 

[QUALTHWAR]

What you need my friend is a good set of leg restraints, and maybe a gag order. Practice on the homeless. They don’t care.

 

[Cat Fuzz]

I'll check Craig's List.