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Proof that gun control works!

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by OICW, Jan 9, 2004.

  1. DamienW

    DamienW I'm no stranger to sarcasm, sir

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    I didn't actually think you'd do it. I'm not that naive, sweetie ;)

    I'm kinda torn on this gun control issue.

    On the one hand, i have to recon that some arguments presented by the pro-gun guys make sense, namely the "criminals got them already" part.

    On the other hand, as long as i lived in France, there simply never was a need for guns where i lived, not nearly enough crime for that. On the other hand, one day, my fater got involvedin an accident, and the other guy was mad enough to tear the door of my father's car with his bare hands. Yes, he was THAT pissed. Had he got a gun, i think it's safe to assume i'd be an orphan by now.

    Of course, you're going to say "well, if your father had a gun, he could also have defended himself".... Yes, but it boils down to someone dying, not to mention the pissed off guy would have been the first to shoot.

    What i mean is : no gun scenario : my father ended up with a broken rib and a few bruises, then people stopped the other guy. Police arrived on the scene, the end.
    gun scenario : one guy kills the other. If it's the other guy, my father's dead. If it's not, my father has now been forced to kill someone, and that is not an act to be taken lightly.

    Bottom line : i am pretty sure that massive gun ownership in France is not needed. But i am ready to believe that it's a part of american culture, and therefore can work to an extent down there. And i'd be glad to see this logic applied to arguments in this debate : gun crime figures about the UK can't be applied to the USA, and so on......
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2004
  2. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge New Member

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    There's not enough cops in the world, nor money to fund them to keep drugs or guns out of peoples hands ... at least not in a free society (hmm ... maybe that's the key).

    We have spent Trillions of dollars and sacrificed many of our Constitutional liberties in the so-called Drug War and it has brought us Zip ... Zero ... Nada control over the illicit drug trade (which is now bigger then when the "Drug War" started). Gun control and the drug war are about one thing power (taken from the people, given to the government) they aren't about public safety or making the world a better place.


    Just for fun I thought I'd post this story (old guy showed a LOT of restraint if you ask me)
    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dallas/newthishour/stories/011304dnmetshooting.10584c33.html
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2004
  3. Vega-don

    Vega-don arreté pour detention de tomate prohibée

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    but when you live in a country where gun control WORKS right, like france , you dont need to carry a gun. you will not be shooted for no reason.

    what americans needs to understant is that 10000 murders a year is not a fatality. its just the result of you laws, police , and social situation.
    when guns are legal , they are mass produced , mass distributed, then the probability that some of those guns become illegals and finish in the wrong hands is higher.

    look at france, we have no handgun industry , so guns are rare , so when someone uses a gun for a murder then the police has more chance to find the murderer ONLY by the caliber... in the usa theires hundreds of guns of each caliber in each city. so you can kill who you want you'll never get caugh if you do this right.
    in france , they'll find what gun has been used , they'll retrace the history of all the guns of this model , and they will find you, stolen gun or not.

    look at china , to , they are more than americans, theire are more poors and
    more inegalities than in the USA. less murders and crime. why ? feared police, justice, strict gun control.

    American governement and lobbies want this situation.More murders = good for gun industry, good for privates jail industry... and the list goes on.
     
  4. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    I won't go into qualifications, but I've had multiple exposures and multiple deployments of CS, CN, and OC in virtually every form. While it's true that OC isn't 100% effective, and I have personally seen people on drugs, alcohol or anger that can defeat it, it still works effectively most of the time. It's just another tool. If it works, it works, if it doesn't, use something else. As far as conditioning yourself as to it's effects, the physical effects on the body do and will always remain the same, they never lessen. How you deal with those effects, yes, you can do some conditioning and training to teach yourself how to fight through it and continue.

    Of course, remember, there are also cases of people taking multiple hits with multiple rounds and either continuing to fight, return fire, or even kill their assailant. So, I guess nothing is 100%, 100% of the time.

    As far as electrical devices, SaraP, you've obviously never put your hands on or been on the business end of a Taser International X26 "electrical device". For those that doubt it's efficacy, click the link and watch the videos. And again without going into personal qualifications, I've been hit with the X26 taser now four times. 3 with darts, 1 with clips. I've also seen about 15-20 people hit with the X26 and I can tell you that it's a physical impossibility to take a hit from that device and act like nothing happened. You are instantaneously immobilized. Trust me. I mean it, you guys need to watch the videos.......and be amazed.
     
  5. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge New Member

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    The problem with your assessment is that (when talking about America at least) where there are more guns there is LESS CRIME. The parts of this country that have tighter restrictions on guns have more crime and climbing crime rates, whereas parts of this country where people have easier access to guns (and especially Shall issue concealed carry) crime rates are lower (and in most cases dropping). Before the gun control laws that exist in America where instituted, crime rates even in the areas that are now high crime were falling.

    So at least within the context of the US, gun control makes things worse not better. Maybe Europeans just can't be trusted with guns or maybe things would be better there without gun control ... I don't know.


    Guns aren't rocket science ... just obey 4 rules a 5 year old can understand and you're fine.

    If you're concerned that people who would otherwise not harm people would do so because they have access to firearms then I'd say you have an overly cyincal view of humanity (plus history doesn't support that position).

    Maybe the problem isn't guns ... maybe its freedom ... do away with freedom and we'll all be docile little sheep that don't/can't harm ourselves.
     
  6. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge New Member

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    Thats nice, but the X26 isn't available to civilians (looks like they plan on marketing a civilian version in June 2004). The one I found for civilian purchase is the M18 ... and its $600! $600 will buy a nice handgun, plus ammo, plus pay for your training and fees to get a CCW and a handgun is STILL more effective then the Taser (if I miss with my Steyr I have 10 more chances ... if I miss with the Taser I'm screwed).
     
  7. anaemic

    anaemic she touch your penis?

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    weh bleah, well on the subject of pepper spray, i just chilli oil all in my eyes nose and face (im told this is what pepper spray is) :|
    it hurt like a bitch but it just made me angry and violent so maybe its not a great self defence tool....
     
  8. Meplat

    Meplat Chock full-o-useless information

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    Well, this pretty much degraded to where I thought it would.

    If you feel safe depending on hand to hand to defend yourself, that's peachy.

    If you think a knife, or mace will do the trick, dandy.

    Please then, extened me the courtesey, of deciding what I should "carry" to defend my person. I assure you, I have plenty of experience, and training to more than adequately make such a decision.

    Otherwise, get used to being a victim.

    Meplat-
     
  9. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    I agree with you Zund :lol: , I was just commenting on the efficacy of the X26. The only diff in the civilian version is that it is 15 pulses per second as opposed to 19 in the l.e. version.

    Personally, I disagree with them even making a civilian version, but, what the hell.

    Those things HURT! :lol:
     
  10. poaw

    poaw You used to sleep easy at night.

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    That's pretty untrue. The arrest and conviction rate for murders in this country hovers around 95%. If your logic that by having too many guns that are similiar significantly hampers the police's ability to solve the murder, then how do they solve murders in which the victim was stabbed with a common kitchen knife or beaten to death?

    It goes beyond a lack of the right to bear arms. It's a near complete lack basic human rights. Locking everyone in solitary confinement will do wonders for public safety and reducing crime, but that's about as much a solution as cutting off your head to relieve a headache.

    That's a pretty outrageous accusation. As in keeping with my personal philosophy, outrageous accusations require outrageous proof. Do you have any?
     
  11. SaraP

    SaraP New Member

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    That's because the M26/X26 (X26 is a newer, smaller model, but its the same technology either way) isn't a regular stun gun -- a regular stun gun is basically an beefed-up cattle prod that zaps you with a high-voltage, low-amperage electrical jolt, wheras the X26 is a neural disruptor which uses a carefully metered electrical pulse to fry your voluntary nervous system. It's definitely the most effective nonlethal on the market, but it still has significant drawbacks:

    1. Range. The maximum range of an M26/X26 is 15 feet with civilian cartridges or 21 feet with law enforcement cartridges. An average human can move fifteen feet in one second, which places a taser user well within the danger zone for hand-to-hand weapons. Note that in police use, the taser is never used as a primary weapon -- you have several officers covering the perp with live weapons while one shoots the taser to disable him.

    2. Rate of fire. It takes two to five seconds to reload the M26/X26 with a spare cartridge, and since the cartridge is muzzle-loaded you cannot keep the weapon on target while reloading. Given the device's limited range, you basically get one shot.

    3. Accuracy. While Taser International claims that the M26 is more effective than even firearms because a hit to any part of the body will instantly incapacitate, the taser darts are set to launch at eight degrees up and down from centerline, which basically means you can *only* make a direct shot at the target's center of mass. You have to make solid body hits with *both* of the taser darts to complete the weapon's electrical circuit; if only one dart hits, the weapon can't shock the target.

    4. Penetration. The darts have limited penetration against heavy clothing and none at all against even the lightest body armor.

    5. Cost. An X26 costs $799.95 and is currently available only to law enforcement (the civilian X26C is expected to be made available sometime in 2004); in the meantime, the only civilian unit is the larger M18L, which costs $599.95. Ammunition for either model is $59.95 for two non-reusable cartridges. If tasers were relatively cheap I might want one; as it is, I am extremely reluctant to pay *more* money for a *less* effective weapon which fires ammunition so expensive I cannot possibly test-fire it more than once or twice.

    If I had the cash handy, I might get an X26 when they come out -- but only as a BACKUP to a handgun or shotgun, the same way the police use them. On the idea of limiting civilians to *only* nonlethal weapons, as has been proposed by some, I find it mind-boggling that one scared little girl all by herself and in danger for her life is expected to make do with a vastly inferior weapon in a situation where trained cops call for backup before proceeding.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2004
  12. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge New Member

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    I'm amazed how big some people think the "gun industry" is.

    McDonald's is larger then the entire US gun industry.

    According to court papers filed in the law suits against the firearms industry, in 1997 the total revenues for the entire firearms industry was about $2 Billion

    in 1997 McDonald's total revenues where about $12 Billion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2004
  13. Meplat

    Meplat Chock full-o-useless information

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    The French have no handgun industry?

    I'll remind myself of that, next time I see a Manuhrin, MAB, or Mateba handgun.

    Meplat-
     
  14. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge New Member

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    Mateba is an Italian company.

    Also, FN is Belgian (thats close to being French).

    In addition, a very large chunk of the worlds firearms come from Austria and Germany.
     
  15. SaraP

    SaraP New Member

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    The bottom line on non-lethal weapons: the M-18 and its successor the X-26 are pretty much the *only* nonlethals that can be trusted to reliably bring down an attacker, but they *CANNOT* be used as a substitute for firearms -- they can be very useful under certain situations, but they simply are not capable of performing as a primary defensive weapon. Personally, I'd get an X-26 and put it on an M203-style underbarrel mount on my Remington 870. That gives me a nonlethal takedown option without sacrificing the vastly superior range and effectiveness of a firearm.
     
  16. Meplat

    Meplat Chock full-o-useless information

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    Zundfolge- *Shrugs* I was misinformed. That leaves MAB, and Manuhrin.

    Don't tell a Belgian that. The "French" thing. They don't like it.

    Oh, another comment. that "chunk" is mainly newer firearms. There's still a huge lump of Mikhail's, and Gene's works floating about this ball of mud. Last I saw, the '16 was very popular south of the U.S. border.

    Meplat-
     
  17. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    SaraP, wow, you can read, and regurgitate almost as if you know what you are talking about. :rolleyes:

    j/k, sorta. :D

    Anyway:

    Well, yes and no. The advantage of the smaller model is a pretty big deal, especially with the amount of stuff on an officer's duty belt, and quite a lower profile. Secondly, the X26 is actually more effective. With the M26, most of it's energy is expended as the cartridge is released, with the X26, the bulk of the energy is released upon penetration. I think they call it shaped pulse technology, as I recall. Bigger bang, with much smaller, and more effective technology, including battery types and life.

    I'm pretty familiar with taser use....................I would never pull a taser in a face to face confrontation with someone with either a firearm or an edged weapon. I believe that would be suicide. Part of the purpose of the taser and taser use, is to prevent injury to officers, or suspects or citizens, by not having to fistfight with them. Generally, dependent upon departmental policy, a taser can be employed against a subject making verbal threats, coupled with some type of indication that the subject is either preparing to or prepared to carry through with such threats. It can also be used if a person is verbally placed under arrest by an officer and either refuses to be taken into custody, attempts to flee, or attempts to resist. Obviously, yes, it can be used in armed confrontations, provided that a deadly force weapon is available as backup. Most policies dictate this in these types of situations regardless of the type of less lethal weapon that is to be used.

    Misleading and uninformed. Yes, generally you get one shot, however, the X26 can still be used as a pretty damned effective weapon even if the cartridge darts miss. It can still be employed using a "drive-stun" to pressure points or other areas (including the groin) to gain even brief compliance, if you feel it necessary to load a new cartridge. In addition, the cartridge need not be removed to drive stun. As I have indicated before, it isn't meant to replace a primary firearm. It's another tool. In addition, there are circumstances where you might get a chance to reload and fire another shot. Someone trying to escape in a vehicle that is either blocked in or disabled. You fire one, hit the car, or don't get a connection, they ain't goin' anywhere. Reload, and fire.

    Again, uninformed and misleading. There's more to the product than reading the website. :lol: I don't know about the M26, never used one or been hit with one. I can tell you with great confidence, that when within range, the "top" probe will hit exactly where the laser dot is aimed. The bottom probe hits lower, true, at 8 degrees. I recall it works out to something like one foot of spread for every seven feet. That's not bad. It is also possible, if necessary, to cant the weapon horizontally, if that is the position which your target is in. In addition, actual skin penetration is NOT NECESSARY to achieve the result, or compliance. If one dart penetrates, or penetrates clothing enough to make contact, all that has to happen is the circuit to be completed. If the suspect makes contact with the other lead, the circuit is completed, and as long as the trigger is pulled, the suspect will get juiced. As a matter of fact, you could conceivably pick up and place the dart on the suspect and pull the trigger and it would work. In addition, if the darts penetrate the clothing enough, it'll work. Trust me.

    W R A U N G - N E G. That's why they make the XP cartridge. XP - extra penetrating. It will penetrate considerably heavier clothing, and all the lightest body armor. Remember, path of least resistance. It doesn't need to go through the body armor and into the skin. However, it is true that some body armor will not allow significant penetration, but I don't see too many people running around with IIIA tac vests, except the police.

    From a Taser Press Release:
    Can't argue with ya on that one. :D However, if you look at the cost to a municipality if they lose a wrongful death civil case, or even looking at the cost of settling the case (which is cheaper anyway), even if the officers acted reasonably, the cost of a taser is pretty cheap. But I will agree that they are expensive. Very expensive.

    Finally, I realize I'm hijacking the crap outta this thread right now, and I apologize. At no time did I ever, EVER intimate or believe that ANY less lethal weapon should EVER take the place of a firearm, I'm just saying that I think it's an excellent alternative where something other than deadly force could be employed to bring a situation to a peaceful resolution. That is all.
     
  18. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    Yeah Zund, but I've yet to see a 950 f.p.s Chicken McNugget, 180 gr. french fries, or semi-automatic Big Mac's. Although that Hamburglar is a sneakeh ba$tard. :lol:
     
  19. Bushwack

    Bushwack Avenged Sevenfold...

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    anyone can take a stungun to an extremity, if you read the intended use by the manufacturer, they are supposed to be, for maximum effectiveness, applied to the TORSO, or GROIN, or HEAD areas of the body, NOT the legs, or the arms, look it up, having 9+ years in Bar security and having carried and relied on stunguns and being PD certified in thier use, a 5 year old kid can take one to the leg and still hit you. {id rather have a 6 D cell Maglite/ASP to rap them in the head with though)

    the TASER and the stungun arent even in the same category as far as what the intended use is, stun guns work on the principal of PAIN COMPLIANCE, IE if it hurts when im trying to grab you, i wont hold on long type scenarios, although stunning someones face and head results in unconsciousness 9/10 times {tried and tested}, the taser in essence and in laymans terms, simply disallows you the use of your voluntary motor muscles, while causing INTENSE physical pain, at ranges well beyond armreach, and allowing a few precious feet of safety, and the option of followup stuns to further incapacitate.
    And, dependant on certain aspects of your own physiology, some things electrical WONT work proper on EVERYONE.

    The TASER freakin works, TRUST ME, 5el gave me a shot with the X26 for Xmas, i didnt go down, but i DEFINITELY was out of the fight, UNCONDITIONALLY. Its like a PAUSE button for a human, with the feeling of being paralyzed and having 50 people with bars of soap in socks beating you everywhere you have muscles...i mean EVERYWHERE. Without a doubt the longest 5 seconds of pain ive ever felt, and i felt REAL PAIN too.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2004
  20. Big_Duke_06

    Big_Duke_06 Charlie Don't Surf!

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    Yeah, but the 33 grams of fat in each Big Mac, 29 grams of fat in each super-size fry, and 24 grams of fat in each 10 piece McNugget is probably more lethal! :lol:

    Matthew
     

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