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Pre-Production UE3.0 mod Recruiting

Discussion in 'Recruitment' started by Fony, Sep 9, 2005.

  1. Fony

    Fony UE3.0 mod Developer

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    Brief Overview

    Kobrakai is a futuristic/realistic squad-based shooter set in an entirely fictional and immersive universe.The game will be powered by the next-generation 3D graphics engine Unreal Engine 3.0 and will include ground-breaking AI aswell as breathtaking visuals.


    Project Overview

    Team Name
    (To be announced)

    Project Name
    Kobrakai (working title)

    Project State
    Pre-Production
    * Concept and Design phase just beginning

    Target Aim
    Non-Commercial Public Release
    Demo/CV Project
    * Projects main aim to be included in CV's / Demo applications

    Compensation
    Accreditation only
    * Your contribution will be accredited within the game, of course
    * The project could also be included in any CV's or demo applications

    Technology Used
    Will be developed using Unreal Engine 3.0, a commercial next-generation graphics engine. Includes incredible lighting features, aswell as full support of Shader Model 3.0.




    Talent Needed


    Conceptual/Technical Artists
    Required to create all conceptual media

    Initially, the artist would be creating pieces to lay conceptual groundwork for the rest of the project. These would include 'mood' pieces, aswell as general architecture and/or landscape art pieces.

    Later on the artist would be expected to be able to create unique concepts for characters, vehicles, weapons, architecture and stylization, however they would not be expected to have in-depth experience in all of those fields.

    Artists will also be responsible for creating model-sheets from which modellers can create the in-game content. These typically include 2-3 orthographic views and a perspective view aswell.



    Programmers (Visual C++, UnrealScript)
    Required to implement custom engine features, aswell as general implementation of content

    Programmers will be required to expand the UE3 codebase aswell as write new code for custom features. A good understanding of C++ is essential, and a basic understanding of UnrealScript is a major plus.

    Later on programmers will be involved in bug-testing and debugging the alpha/beta versions and final release candidate.




    Current Development Team

    Mark Edgecombe - Project Lead, Design Lead, Modeller

    Tam Denholm - Webmaster

    Baris Tarimcioglu - Narrative Consultation

    Kyle Horn - AI Lead, Programming Lead



    Website
    Currently Under Construction


    Contact Information
    E-Mail : medgecombe@gmail.com
    MSN : omglookatmeimsocool@gmail.com
    Please use either of these methods to contact me if you are interested in either of the above positions.


    About the positions
    This is the no-bs section ;)

    I won't lie and tell you that this is a dream project, because it isn't. We're planning to be using industry-revolutionising techniques in more than one area, and it's not going to be done overnight. At the very earliest we're looking at a project timeline of 12-18 months, at the earliest.
    Anybody that contributes will have a say in how the mod turns out, it isn't my mod, its our mod.




    Thanks for reading, please contact me if you're interested in any of the above positions, thanks again,

    Mark
    Kobrakai Project Lead
     
  2. Angel_Mapper

    Angel_Mapper Goooooooats

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    Uh... I think you have that a little wrong. A great understanding of UnrealScript would be required, and no C++ experience would be necessary at all.

    Just a note, buzzwords like "ground breaking AI" and "industry revolutionizing" immediately discredit any mod attempt by being translated into "we have no clue what we're doing". :) A lot more detail than that will be required to get any interest in your mod, and preferably a good majority of the gameplay will be coded and an early alpha will be available to download before anybody will be interested in joining.
     
  3. elmuerte

    elmuerte Master of Science

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    will it have things like light bloom and HDR stuff? I just love that.
     
  4. Fony

    Fony UE3.0 mod Developer

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    Actually no. Yes experience with Unrealscript is extremely useful, but the majority of coding that will be going on at this phase of development will be prototyping AI and some other feature code in UE2.5, which unless I'm miraculously mistaken, is also C++ based.

    (Feel free to correct me, I's been a long time since I worked with Unreal tech, I mainly work with Source at the moment)

    If you can point me to any software development studio which is seriously considering implementing a completely dynamic, AI-driven animation system into a real-time graphics rendering engine, I will happily remove those 1-2 lines from my previous post.

    Looks like you really tripped yourself up there. You went from telling me that most people won't be interested in joining because of a lack of an alpha version, to telling me I need programmers to do all the codework for an alpha version, before they join the team.



    I really am trying to find reasons not to dislike you, as from what I've heard you have an incredible reputation as a mapper (which im sure is true) - however you're making it hard for me.

    You seem to be attempting to either persuade people not to help my team, or to just plain patronise me for the simple reason that I didn't post mind-boggling technical details due to the fact that not only is the engine currently unreleased (no public technical documentation available), but, as I originally posted :

    The concept and design phase is currently beginning, so there really isn't much point in posting "zomg look at my mod its gonna have this and that" when it could easily not have any of it due to any number of technical issues.


    Just a quick word of advice, I don't think I've heard of anybody in the Unreal community, I've not been around it for very long, but I know you from your quality mapping tutorials.
    For such a figurehead of the community, it might be beneficial to your reputation, if not your self-respect, not to patronise new board members, especially on their first post, without good reason.

    @ El_Muerte

    As far as I am aware, 64-bit HDR lighting is included in the engine itself, and although I am not entirely sure as pertaining to light blooms due to a lack of public documentation of the engine seeing as it is pre-release, I think it is a safe bet to assume that it a) is included or b) will be relatively simple to implement.


    [hmmm, my account password was changed, and it wouldnt email me my account details, hence the second account, interesting....]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2005
  5. Angel_Mapper

    Angel_Mapper Goooooooats

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    Without an engine license, you don't have access to the headers and can only work in UnrealScript.


    Look, I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from anything. It's just that this community has seen this type of post dozens of times before, and as far as I can remember none of the mods that have started out with posts like this ever go anywhere, for one simple reason: Coders are extremely jaded people. You'll be able to get mappers easily, but for coders, you're going to have to bring a little more to the table than just being an idea man.

    Coming from personal experience with failed mods, and experience watching other mods in the community die before they've started, I've learned that the best advice I can give to someone starting a mod is:

    1) Go into excruciating detail about your mod in your post. We may have the rare map thief in the community, but nobody is motivated enough to steal an entire mod, and nobody will be interested in joining without more information, which most people will be too lazy to request through email. You have to trust that nobody is going to steal your ideas, in this community the odds of that happening are very, very remote. Everyone else is too busy dealing with their own supar-sekrit uber ideas. ;)

    2) The project leader ABSOLUTELY HAS to have programming skills, plus a little bit of mapping knowledge but that's not as much of a requirement. Just knowing your way around the editor and being able to do basic stuff, enough to build test levels, will suffice. Your role as leader will be to get the project off of the ground by coding the basics, making test levels, and organizing testing and feedback. Once a basic game has been made, release it to the community while asking for help. Having something tangible to mess around with will go a long way in finding talent, ESPECIALLY with programmers. They don't seem to like being bossed around by an idea man who isn't contributing anything to the mod.

    3) Don't use someone else's IP (I know this doesn't apply to you, but it's still a major point on my list to new mod makers). It should go without saying, but it's amazing how many mods have started out like that and have quickly been squashed by cease and desists.



    I'm honestly trying to help, I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way. It's just frustrating to see so many mods die before they've even started, and watch the team lose interest in the community and the engine.

    If this is your first foray into the Unreal engine, in your spare time I would immediately start getting into coding, starting with small weapon and mutator scripts, then working your way into different areas until you have a solid grasp of the inner workings of the game and how everything connects. I'm not saying to completely abandon your mod idea, but when it comes time to make it, you should be leading the charge. :)

    Good luck, and welcome to BeyondUnreal and the community! :)
     
  6. Switch`

    Switch` Pixelante

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    You're not mistaken about Unreal Engine being C++ based and C++ being the language of choice for AI/engine feature base code.
    There's a catch: UE2 C++ headers are not public - all modding is done in unrealscript.
     
  7. [SAS]Solid Snake

    [SAS]Solid Snake New Member

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    Yeah, apparently Duke Nukem Forever was trying to implement this. To me this sounds kind of like garbage, AI driven animation system? Uhm, all it sounds to me is that a pawn thinks he wants to walk this the animation system plays the walking animation. New? .. uhh ok. Unless you on about something else, but decided to call it a fancy name. AI isn't an easy thing to program and more so into games. Currently the best AI for games are still a bunch of if else statements strung together. The more complex the if and else routines, sure the AI gets a bit better. But we're still not going to see fuzzy logic or intricate neural nets occuring... and besides, every mod and his dog are announcing they have the greatest AI on earth.

    Just like with UT2004 and most likely UT2007, the headers won't be released like they were for UT99, thus you can't write a single line of native code. Unrealscript and C++ are similar, but doesn't mean they are the same. We've seen lots of 'fluent' C++ programmers fumble on Unrealscript already.

    Hmmm, there are problems associated with both despotism and communist type government rules in a mod team ... but thats been discussed on the Wiki.

    Look we're all trying to help here, as Rachel said, we've all seen this done before. A new person pops up on the forums, announcing a mod with fancy cool names and wing dings. People comment, he gets all upset and defends his mod and how possibly great it may be. And then it dies and no one ever hears about it again...
     
  8. elmuerte

    elmuerte Master of Science

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    If your next gen mod wants to be succesful you also must think about adding things like lenticular halos, parameterized Phong lighting and pre-computed bump-granularity self-shadowing using spherical harmonic maps. Those are not easy to implement, but really add some great visuals. Graphics make up 75% of a succesful game. I've seen this more than enough, people don't really care about what the game does, it's the graphics thats important.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2005
  9. Pfhoenix

    Pfhoenix Programmer Extraordinaire

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    Oh lord.

    Oh, I think I can respond without pretending to not be demeaning, judgemental, or to not dissuade people from having interest in your project. Allow me.

    First off, I'd like to direct your attention to http://mep.beyondunreal.com/realismmod . You might find it someone reminiscient of your post. I made that site as a parody of all the brand new mods that so overshoot their capabilities, that it's laughable. You fall into that category. Sure, you're not intending to make a CS clone or Yet Another Realism Mod, but your entire approach is exactly the same. You're exactly like thousands of other failed mod teams and concepts. Let's see why :

    UE3 - did you just happen to hear about how great UE3 will be? Do you even know what it is? It's not a game! Shock! Awe! Surprise! How can you mod something that 1) isn't even publicly available, 2) there's no technical documentation whatsoever available to you, 3) there's no game even using it that's out yet. By every statement you've made, you've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have NO clue about the engine, what it might or might not be capable of, or how easy/hard it will be to work with. No clue AT ALL.

    Team Requirements - AngelMapper hit this one on the head, but I'd like to point something else out - what makes you think you know how to run a professional design team? Clearly you haven't the experience doing so, or that you simply think you know what people want to read in order to garner attention for more help, but the odds of you attracting any artist of particular skill are about on par with the whole of my ass bursting into flames. The odds of you attracting a programmer worth his/her salt is exactly the same as the chances of my ass not only exploding, but pieces of it landing on the moon, starting a new bacterial colony that evolves into a sentient species, developing interstellar travel, and blowing up the sun.. in the next 5 minutes.

    Buzz Words - I don't know what it is with you people, who think that just because you know how to spell buzzwords that somehow this imparts to you special knowledge of either what they mean, or how to use them properly. Christ, it's exactly like you don't know what they mean, what the work they represent entails, or anything at all. Did you just wake up and think "You know, today I'm going to get a bunch of random strangers together, and we're going to make a really kick ass game together, something I haven't even thought of yet! It'll be the best in the world! I'll grab the powerup and win the game!"?

    Let me clue you in on something, Fony, and I won't lie to you - your idea IS a dream project. You see, I've been at this whole modding thing for quite a while. I've seen people like you, with projects like yours, come and go too many times to count. You'd be doing yourself a huge favor if you decided on something remotely reasonable, like a UT2004 mod. Because, until you do, all you'll have is exactly the value of this thread - bupkis.

    - Pfhoenix
    http://mep.beyondunreal.com
    http://mep.beyondunreal.com/proelium
    http://mep.beyondunreal.com/hz
    http://www.marblemania2003.com
     
  10. Fony

    Fony UE3.0 mod Developer

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    You know, I heard a vicious rumour that the vast majority of online gamers are playing Half-Life based mods. But wait, isn't that engine nearing 10 years of age I hear you cry?

    Shouldn't they all be playing on Unreal2k4 with it's spanktastic graphics, despite the fact that the game only really has one type of gameplay (its arguable whether its even a real gameplay type) ?
     
  11. [SAS]Solid Snake

    [SAS]Solid Snake New Member

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    I can't believe that you could not see the mockey in El_Muerte_[TDS]'s comment.

    http://www.unrealtechnology.com/html/technology/ue30.shtml, it kind of shows us how little you know about the UE3 engine or could be bothered to even search for answers (not a good sign at all, sigh). All of those next gen mod things that 'should' be implemented are what UE3 already do... however, with the said it doesn't neccessarily mean that the UT2007 version will do all of those since they often tweak the engine and remove bits and pieces out that aren't needed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2005
  12. Fony

    Fony UE3.0 mod Developer

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    last I heard UE3.0 didn't ship with out-of-the-box good mod gameplay.
    Sure it cuts out a lot of graphics work, but that isn't too important in the end run anyway.

    Yes I do know what those things are, and that they are already implemented in UE3; I'm not an idiot, I've done my research. There really is little to no reason for you to be putting me down, I cannot count the number of times I've visited that page, so don't tell me about "couldnt be bothered to search for answers".

    Although I realise that some of you have been honestly trying to help (thankyou angel_maper and switch) this community seems far too cynical and vain to actually provide any help other than an arbitrary measurement on how "professional" one of you is over the other.
    I guess I'll have to look elsewhere.

    (just as an FYI: since posting that I've had 2 concept artists and a web developer contact me expressing a wish to help with the project)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2005
  13. elmuerte

    elmuerte Master of Science

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    I have to excuse myself (apperently), every post I made contained a certain level of sarcasm (or similar).
     
  14. [SAS]Solid Snake

    [SAS]Solid Snake New Member

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    That makes no sense. Its just an engine. Why does an engine have to have any sort of gameplay associated with it?

    So what? A concept artists, while useful, won't actually get your game anywhere. Sure you can make up pretty pictures and have a website .. oh yeah I forgot, a game is all about how great the website looks like and how great the concept art looks like. My bad.
     
  15. Fony

    Fony UE3.0 mod Developer

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    Ok, its pretty blatantly obvious now [SAS]Solid Snake that you have no clue how to make a half-decent mod. You dont start with half a million coders and scream "zomg i want this stuff in it its cool".
     
  16. Pfhoenix

    Pfhoenix Programmer Extraordinaire

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    Why not? It worked for DavidM and Deathball.

    Fony : there is a huge difference between cynicism-out-of-jealousy and cynicism-because-we've-all-seen-this-before. Your inability to be able to determine which is which is a failure on your part, not ours. Of course, this behavior is exactly parallel with all the other people that we've been comparing you to, so to say it's expected of you is a vast understatement.
     
  17. KingJackaL

    KingJackaL New Member

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    Haha - sorry, just had to register to say I got a real kick out of this thread. First post is comedy gold. Took me about 10 minutes of laughing to get through.

    ggz! _b


    Seriously though Fony - you sound like you're a little out of your depth. I'm a programmer, and I'm working on a few mod ideas of my own. But they're really really tiny. Single feature mods - mutators and the like. Start with the small, work your way up. It's always the best long-term strategy. Think of it this way, your mod has a creation time of 12-18 months. If you spend a couple months making a few mini-mods so you can familiarise yourself on the tech base (albeit UE2.5), you'll not only have real credentials ( I made X mod, Y mod, J mod - your trackrecord is a credential people will listen to ), but you'll probably have made a transition from your current experience with tools ( coming from Source to UE, I'm guessing there'd be a lot different. I'm trying out the UE world atm, coming from a Q3 background, and it's similar, but not the same ). Not to mention, it's a hell of a lot easier to try a project for a few weeks alone and decide you don't like the tech, than to get into a big team-effort multi-YEAR project and find that out ;).

    PS.
    DESIGN IS KING ;D
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2005
  18. eastgate2

    eastgate2 Member

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    Why this society has become more cynical, misanthropical and incredulous? Is it because of make something unreal contest? Or is it because modding evolved to be more difficult? Sure polygon counts increased but has coding became more time-consuming or difficult?

    I miss the old days, even the bitter tone of DavidM. Despairing attitude is the worst.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2005
  19. MonsOlympus

    MonsOlympus Active Member

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    Hmm immersive universe?? Well if you really want to get people interested an idea might help.

    Hi I got a mod name starbluff its set in a fictional and immersive universe, anyone can blurt **** like that. We want to here things like you take the role of an elite squad scouring the universe of starbluff along the way you'll meet many different races and come across ancient relics. You have to make a advertisment, like they do with movies, you cant ramble a few details off and leave out the rest.

    Im using Unreal Engine 3.0 for this squad-based shooter (Which sounds really crap). How bout we are going to be using unreal engine 3 for this project the gameplay prototype will be made using unreal engine 2 and once a completed unreal 3 engine game is out we will port it over.

    This modification will include cooperative gameplay (because squad based is over done), team based multiplayer (Again with the squad based) :p.

    You know you really have to like the idea yourself before you can go around selling it. Oh yeah I'd be paying people if I could afford to use UE3.

    Well I tried to be helpful but its hard with such a crap post. Sorry but thats my honest opinion and being a coder, artist, modeller you wont be recieving an email from me wanting to help.

    I suggest you sit down and do some hard work on atleast 5 ruff pages on what the whole things about then post it. People want to know the scope of a project before they consider joining as we are modders this is a parttime thing some of us are lucky enough to hold jobs in the industry but Im thinking most of us want to use our skills to get into the games industry.

    So break it down explain everything in detail and dont use ground breaking its soo crap. It might be an idea to take a course on writing also if your the main story writer. I hope some of this help and excuse my french we do see this thing all the time and really it just wastes space on the forum server. So if your serious please take my advice and advice of others read the docs about recruitment on the wiki and come back and see if youve learned anything.
     
  20. DingBat

    DingBat New Member

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    Jesus, you people have me feeling sorry for Fony.

    Despite many here being experienced modders, there is apparently still a lot we could all learn.

    Perhaps Fony's plan is a pie-in-the-sky, total dream, never-gonna-happen kind of thing. So what? The absolutely worst thing an "elder" can do is poison the innocent with their cynicism and world-weariness. Who knows what might happen? Just because we've all failed with plans like that doesn't necessarily mean it will happen in this case. And even if it does, hey, I'm sure they'll learn lots from the experience.

    The least little bit of common sense would tell anyone of average intelligence that Fony (or anyone else for that matter) is not likely to react positively to the kinds of "helpful advice" people are spewing here, even if most of it is true. I'm sure Angel_Mapper did not intend offense, but, frankly, I thought her initial response was a little more harsh than necessary myself.

    If you really must take it upon yourself to bring dreamers back down to earth, then how about a simple pointer to http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/Making_Mods? It basically covers what's been said, sans the sarcasm.
     

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