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Oicw

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by Holocaust, Feb 9, 2002.

  1. Gholam

    Gholam Sergeant (Reserve), IDF

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the amazing M60 have that little feature of belt pulling mechanism breaking if you closed the top cover with the bolt retracted?
     
  2. pshyco123456

    pshyco123456 New Member

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    OICW will be replacing the m16. even though i love the m16. I still think since this is one of the most realistic games we need the oicw.
     
  3. Gholam

    Gholam Sergeant (Reserve), IDF

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    Psycho, have you ever carried a real gun? For at least an hour? Have you ever tried to haul around an 11kg FN MAG + spare barrel + 400 rounds of ammo? From your posts, I'd say you haven't... because if you have, you'd know that the first thing that soldiers care about is weight, and the last thing that soldiers care about is weight, period. Every extra pound that your gun weighs is a pound less of ammo that you can carry - and you can never have too much ammo, it's as simple as that. A grenade launcher is a support weapon, and will never be mounted on every single rifle, simply because it's not needed. 20mm grenades lack killing power. Mating an AR with a 10" barrel and a 20mm grenade launcher won't make two useless weapons any more useful. OCSW project is a little more interesting, provided the technology works in actual field conditions - and until you have actually been in those conditions, you won't be able to imagine what they are.

    Bottom line: OICW will never replace the M16, even US Army officials say that it is only meant to replace M16+M203 combos. 20mm grenades are not likely to be effective on a real battlefield. A scaled-down OCSW, firing at least a 40mm airburst round, might be an effective support weapon, deployed at platoon or even company level.
     
  4. Tiffy

    Tiffy Back to champion the L85

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    Forget it Gholam. It's prats like Pschyo that make me wonder just why I'm bothering. The fact that your a serving soldier who's been there, done that and got the bloody T shirt doesn't matter to him. He want's his buck rogers ray gun and he'll get it no matter what.

    And when he's all grown up and deciding what to do for a living, he won't be picking the Military as a job beause they not only have to live in holes in the ground and get shot at but they have to carry a two ton piece of sh1t they jokingly call a rifle with him too.

    Or do the US military intend every soldier to have either his own personal Hummer or a cheaper alternative his own porter.

    The bottom line is EVERY thing that you might want in the field has to be carried there ON YOUR BACK. You'd be amazed at what people suddenly decide they don't want anymore when you tell them there carrying it.

    Psycho when your old enough, job the Scouts or something, it might give you a grasp on reallity. Until then just stay out the way, keep quite and let the people who know how do the job.
     
  5. Pshyco

    Pshyco New Member

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    From what I heard before, The OICW is supposed to be the most defensive/offencive weapon when it is fully completed. I know im not the smartest person for military guns. I just want an OICW in INF
     
  6. Gholam

    Gholam Sergeant (Reserve), IDF

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    Ok, now that it is established that you're not the smartest person when it comes to military weapons, will you listen to those who are smarter than you? At least 5 people with actual military experience - Tiffy, ShakKen, Gryphon, Puncher and myself - have replied to this thread, listing various reasons why OICW is a piece of crap, and you keep ignoring it. Hell, even if it was the best goddamn weapon in the world, Infiltration includes milspec weapons ONLY, and OICW just might go milspec in 8-10 years.
     
  7. spm1138

    spm1138 Irony Is

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    Psycho. Could you do us all a favour and next time you want to mention the OICW, don't?

    You are not getting one in Inf. The end. So shut the **** up?

    The OICW is the equivalent of those concept cars you see at shows. You might see some features from it in 10 years time on commercial models, if you are lucky. There are too many flaws in the key concepts the weapon is designed around.

    If you have problems with not getting weapons because they are not really in use, find another mod. We're having trouble getting weapons that are in use added...
     
  8. agent

    agent <span id=spObj style="FILTER:Glow(color=#5D025E);w

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    :lol:

    [edit]all your OICW are belong to us !![/edit]
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2002
  9. randomas

    randomas New Member

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    G11 data

    think someone asked for this so here's what I found.

    Caliber
    4.73mm
    x 33
    .185
    inches
    Ammunition
    type:
    Caseless
    Overall
    Length:
    750mm
    29.53
    inches
    Width:
    74mm
    2.92
    inches
    Height:
    295mm
    11.61
    inches
    Weight with 2
    loaded mags:
    4.3
    kg
    9.48
    lbs.
    Barrel length
    less chamber:
    540mm
    21.26
    inches
    Rifling twist
    length:
    155mm
    1/6.10
    inches RH twist
    Caseless
    ammunition length:
    33mm
    1.29
    inches
    Projectile
    weight:
    3.25
    g
    .12
    oz
    Muzzle
    velocity:
    Approx.
    930 m/sec
    Approx.
    3051 f/sec

    fires semi 3 round burst and full auto .

    three round burst a 2000 rpm.

    sustained fire at 460 rpm.

    sorry about data format but copy/pasted from a table.

    found info here
     
  10. Gholam

    Gholam Sergeant (Reserve), IDF

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    That, my friend, is only the most basic data. What is the muzzle climb on it? How hard does it kick? How long does it take to swap magazines? What does the sight picture look like? How is it balanced? Those, and a million other questions, can only be answered by people who have actually used it, and in case of G11, they are hard to find...

    Edit: I'll also give you an example of what it means to actually model a gun. Let's take Galil SAR, a weapon I'm somewhat familiar with. Dissecting the whole thing would take more time than I have right now, so I'll focus on just one part: fire selector. Three things about it that are likely to be missed by so-called gun modelers:

    1) Galil (and AK) trigger group is safe-auto-semi, not safe-semi-auto like on most western weapons.
    2) About 3/5 of selector lever's movement arc is between safe and auto, remaining 2/5 is between auto and semi - most would put them at equal distance.
    3) Something that I've NEVER seen on a photo - when selector lever is in safe position, there's a slot in reciever side behind it. All photos of Galil I've ever seen show it in safe position, so this is 99.9% to be missed.

    See what I'm talking about? Can you give similar depth of data on G11?
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2002
  11. randomas

    randomas New Member

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    I sure can't but if you check the site I linked too there's quite alot of stuff there ...... In my opinion enough to model the gun for the game anyways ;)


    I must admit that if I had to go to battle (I'd hire someone to go for me if given half a chance) I'd steer clear of a G11 or a P90 cause I just don' t trust them ....

    In the game the G11 might give too much of an advantage ..... don't know realy ......
     
  12. RAZZ

    RAZZ aka FURY13RT

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    I fail to see how one set of polyguns emitting a bullet will unbalance over another set of polyguns emitting a bullet if the clips not much longer, the bullets not much stronger, or the aim aint much easier.

    ----------------
    just to play devils advocate :)

    details great to know about. but theres things that affect inf guns, and things that are nice but not real earth shattering far as can be implemented under ut.
    its good to know switch details about that gun, but the fire selector in inf wont be moving anytime soon.

    I doubt the team would spend so much time on these guns to base their in game appearance on someones opinion alone.
    a former owner/operator is a fantastic resource. but recorded data is easier to use.

    meaning: "it kicks like a bitch" is hard to translate into degrees.
    but with samples from a video, you should be able to get numbers.
    (ex, ...we know roughly how large 'some other object in the scene' is, so we can get a measure of how far the rifle moved....)


    realistically tho.
    we got no control over what they consider "enough information".

    if they can make the g11, great! :)
    if they cant, well tis a shame cause I was looking forward to it :(
     
  13. FiringAimlessly

    FiringAimlessly NOT going to waste another minute on CS!

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    - Just out of curiosity, do you mean the lever goes into the slot and lock in place, or is it unrelated to the lever itself?

    - I think Gholam meant balance as in the physical handling of the weapon, not how it would perform relative to all the other guns overall in the game.
     
  14. ShakKen

    ShakKen Specops Spook

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    This slot.

    Gholam: FYI, I personally sometimes omit to model the slot myself because save the cockign lever the right side of the gun is often not animated, so sometimes I model just the ejection port and the slot is simply skinned on.

    But you're right of course, CS's AK-47 is the classic example.
     
  15. Gholam

    Gholam Sergeant (Reserve), IDF

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    There's some introductory material on that site, not "a lot of stuff". To what degree the cocking handle is turned, and in what direction? It's probably 90 degrees counterclockwise, but how do you know? What about sounds? That video on the site has some low quality sounds of it being fired, and even a click of magazine being inserted, but that's it... what kinda sound does it make when you chamber a round? It's completely different from gun to gun; for example, M16 makes a springy "clang-clang" sound, while Galil is a series of dull clicks... G11 with it's rotating bolt and VCR-like machinery inside should be something completely else. Where is the magazine catch button? It seems to be that button on left side of the gun right under front leg of carrying handle, but how can you know for sure? (by the way, if it's that, major props to H&K: you made a fully ambidextrous weapon, one that is equally uncomfotable to reload for both right and left handled people). Overall, lack of actual, intimate knowledge of the weapon being modeled will result in such braindead errors as an M16 model where forward assist is pulled to cock the weapon.

    First of all, yes, I meant balance as the physical balance of a weapon - M16 is pretty well balanced, while AUG is way butt heavy for example. However, there is the gameplay balance issue as well: G11, at 3-round burst, out to 200-300 meters, is a semi-automatic Robar with the bulk of M16, and a 15-round magazine.

    When I say "most modelers", you know that does not include you ShakKen :) What about CS AK-47? Never played CS, so I wouldn't know :)

    By the way, another tidbit about Galil that rarely, if ever, shows up on photos (but you most likely know it anyway): handguards look like they are U-shaped one-piece, right? Wrong. They are flat halves, right and left, open from the bottom. Only seen when you turn the gun over, and gun photos are almost never taken from this angle.
     
  16. ShakKen

    ShakKen Specops Spook

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    Gholam: CS's famous AK shoots and cycles despite the safety all the way up locking the bolt forward.

    CS's M4 carbine does exactly this ;)

    About the Galil, IMO the best handguards are the closed bottom AR types. Not the ugly ass ARM's.
     
  17. Gholam

    Gholam Sergeant (Reserve), IDF

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    "."

    Uhhh, there is zero difference between ARM, AR, and SAR handguard mount. ARM is an AR with bipod and carrying handle, nothing more... think during my year in IDF, I saw one once (and it didn't have the handle mounted, only bipod). AR is almost retired too, used only by some units of artillery corps and anti-air forces for training only. The most common Galil model in IDF is SAR, issued to entire armored corps, most of artillery corps, and anywhere else where there aren't enough M-16 carbines to go around and full-lenght M-16A1 isn't suitable. On all Galils I've seen, handguards have been open bottom type... if you say there are closed bottom ones out there, I guess you're right, but they aren't used by IDF. Also, about 999 out of a 1000 Galil handguards are black plastic, but wooden ones pop up from time to time.
     
  18. ShakKen

    ShakKen Specops Spook

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    No you silly, the vektor type.
     
  19. ShakKen

    ShakKen Specops Spook

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    A couple of the few Galils I've seen here(albiet, with the tritium inserts removed) had these too.
     
  20. Gholam

    Gholam Sergeant (Reserve), IDF

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    Wow, a scope mount for Galil, I knew it was out there, but IDF never uses them...

    Oh, and tritium sights are removed on 95%+ of IDF Galils.
     

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