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Oh, those pesky "dark" muslims!

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Benfica, Jul 27, 2011.

  1. Israphel

    Israphel Sim senhor, efeitos especial

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    Ah, the standard anti-immigrant response. Get out of my country....except, my passport says "Portugal" on it...same as yours.

    That's right, I like your (actually, "our") country so much that I got dual nationality, married a Portuguese woman, and have called it home for 13 years.
    I don't believe I've "dissed my host" country ever in a post here. You're welcome to try and find one if you don't have anything more important to do. I occasionally complain about the way people drive here, and goddam, there's too much salt in the food...but other than that, I love it here, and I think I'll stay :)

    You seem to have an anger that you want to direct at other people. Is it always someone else's fault?
     
  2. aCRaSSiCauDa

    aCRaSSiCauDa ...

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    Visiting a country is not the same as living in it.

    Also, I believe that those who made the posters are not Arabs, are they?

    In Saudi Arabia, foreigners have their own areas to do whatever they want to do. Foreigners in Saudi Arabia are mostly people who come from Europe, the United States or Canada, simply those whose first language is not Arabic, or just not Muslims.

    Here in Jordan there's an entire area occupied by Christians, so they can do whatever they want to do. In my visits to that area, I haven't noticed any mosques. Also, that does not mean Christians do not live elsewhere, on the contrary, they live everywhere normally, just that area is mostly, if not fully, occupied by Christians.

    Ramadan and other Islamic events are respected by everybody here. And Christian events are respected just the same.

    We don't have hatred or discrimination against Christians.

    And stop relating Burqa to Islam. Yes, we do make fun of them all the time, Ninjas, P.O. Boxes.. etc etc but they're not signs of Islam.
     
  3. SnaKe-Fu

    SnaKe-Fu Thread Killer.

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    What about the Iraqi Christians? They have to practice their faith in fear every day, and they have had many attacks against them in the places of worship.
     
  4. aCRaSSiCauDa

    aCRaSSiCauDa ...

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    That is being done by terrorists.

    Muslims in Iraq are also in danger.

    This discrimination was first made between Muslims (Sunnis and Shiites), when that got cold they started a new one which was between Muslims and Christians, both are false, and are nothing but ways to create chaos.

    And those who were behind the discrimination between Sunnis and Shiites are the same ones who started the discrimination and hatred between Muslims and Christians.

    It all started after the last war in 2003.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2011
  5. dragonfliet

    dragonfliet I write stuffs

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    Hey guys, I just want to warn you that a rabid ferret made its way into Benifica's anus. He may be a little irritable.
     
  6. Big-Al

    Big-Al amateur de bière

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    well said :)
     
  7. ambershee

    ambershee Nimbusfish Rawks

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    An army of football hooligans who turn up in towns in order to start fights with whoever is there never makes sense.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL1jDcAHkc8

    Documentary starts here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a72P5t-sR4&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8y1riEoHtU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruesJzgwtgA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-_fU1Qnwpg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MFcsq889kE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0MfASW5vt4
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2011
  8. Firefly

    Firefly United Kingdom is not a country.

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  9. Benfica

    Benfica European Redneck

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    You like it here? Good for you. It's nice to live in a friendly environment where people are free, build family and a career, where you can focus completely on what you do best, feel reasonably safe from harassment, isn't it?

    What the article illustrates is exactly one of many situations where that does not happen. You don't live there, you can't say that there's no problem, "move along there's nothing to see here".

    You can call me angry about the way that I hate this undemocratic Sharia "Law", because that goes more to the heart of the matter, than some anti-immigrant views that you naively accused me of. I'm the son of a guy that fought in the colonial war and belong to the group of military that overthrew the 48 years fascist dictatorship in 1974. He had to endure fascism, repression, starvation, war, trauma. Being educated by such a person, of course I'm moved by ideology and activism, it couldn't be otherwise. I really, really, really like democracy and freedom that my old man gifted me, very nice stuff :) I don't intend to lose it.

    I don't really know why I presented a justification for the way I am or try to be. Just be sure that I will not stand on my ass if I see this Islam garbage becoming predominant here.
     
  10. aCRaSSiCauDa

    aCRaSSiCauDa ...

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    Sure thing, because humans usually stand on their feet :)
     
  11. Zur

    Zur surrealistic mad cow

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    It's a common trap. Justified or not, blaming someone else enables limitless anger and waste of collosal energy.
     
  12. Big-Al

    Big-Al amateur de bière

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    no different to an ostrich :)
     
  13. Israphel

    Israphel Sim senhor, efeitos especial

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    First off, apologies for my first post, it upset you and it was wrong of me to say you were spouting garbage. You were however being aggressive towards people who were offering you reasoned arguments by telling them to "shut up". That kind of approach won't engender respectful responses. However, I was out of order, so apologies for that...I'll try to be more reasoned and considered in my response.

    Now, please don't misunderstand me, and I don't mean to ever disrespect the efforts of your father and those like him, but I met Vitor Alves once before he died, he and my father-in-law (a university professor who was imprisoned briefly under the dictatorship) were good friends. The ideologies of freedom and democracy that both these men stood for included the right of someone like the idiot in the news article you linked (and I agree with you on that, the guy is an idiot) to speak his mind and have his opinions no matter how repugnant those opinions may be to people like you and I.

    That's what freedom is.

    But with regard to that article, you're blowing things out of all proportion, and using it as a stick to beat an entire culture....which is what the writers and publishers of that particular piece of crap newspaper wanted. You're allowing yourself to be manipulated by ridiculously superficial "journalism"

    You're right, I no longer live in the UK, but most of my family do, many of my friends do (both Portuguese and English), and of course I visit often. The article you linked is akin to say, some individual coming to my street and posting "Brits out" stickers everywhere, then phoning Tal e Qual, or Correio da Manha and getting them to send a journalist along to cover this "wave of anti-British sentiment". The journalist takes a few snaps, then goes to the local tasca, buys a few locals a Sagres, and says "Do you think that's it's good that English people (I'm the only one in my street by the way) come here, push up house prices, take Portuguese jobs and inflict their culture on everyone. Would you like it if you were forced to eat baked beans and crap English food in this tasca?"
    Of course the locals say that actually that doesn't sound all that nice, and then the story is spun as "Hatred as English immigrants attempt to take over Principe Real" or whatever.

    You see, it's a non story...it's one person's opinion but sadly people are taken in by this crap, and in the case of the Daily Mail, it's a story that serves to back up their constant anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant policy (which is ironic considering the owner, despite being the 4th Viscount Rothermore, is not actually classed as a resident of the UK to avoid paying tax there, and yet his paper constantly writes about immigrants who rip off the UK welfare system).
    It does nothing more than spread hatred and misinformation. Don't be fooled by it.

    As for Sharia law, I am in complete agreement with you, it's disgraceful...but of all the Muslim countries in the world, do you know how many of them have Sharia policies? Do you know how many significant Sharia political parties there are in those countries? On balance, sharia policies are far less popular than far right, ultra conservative policies are in western nations. It's not even close. You repeatedly seem to see Islam as being closely connected to Sharia law....they're not. It's like someone thinking that because certain dictators like Salazar and Franco pushed Catholic views, then Catholicism must be connected with undemocratic fascist dictatorship.

    I don't know anything about you, but have you spent much time in Islamic countries, or much time around Muslims? I didn't always "take pretty pictures" for a living. For most of my professional like I was a teacher. Between 1996 and 1998, I worked in school in London teaching English to immigrants, most of whom were from Middle Eastern countries. By and large, their goals in life were the same as yours or mine. To have a job and a home, to have the freedom to follow their beliefs and felt no need to push those beliefs onto others. (To be honest, this is true of every single muslim I've ever met).
    After I came to Portugal in '98, I spent a couple of summers working in Cairo. One time pre 9/11, the second time post 9/11. I travelled pretty extensively through Egypt at the time, and have also travelled pretty extensively in Morocco. At Easter, my wife and I drove from the coast down through the country to the edge of the Sahara, and in the various places we stayed we worked with local guides so I could get better photographs. We got to know many local people, who as was the case in Egypt, were without exception, friendly, hospitable and well informed about the world. They were all as scathing and disgusted by sharia law as any westerner is.
    I was there when the bomb went off in Jamaa el Fna, Marrakech (on the other side of the country, luckily for me), and the Moroccan people I was with were all as equally shocked and outraged as the western media.

    So to link this ridiculous guy in the Mail article, and to take it seriously as some kind of movement for instatement of Sharia law in the UK doesn't do you any favours. I regularly meet Portuguese people who tell me that "things were so much better under Salazar", but I don't for a second believe that there's any general wave of feeling or desire for that kind of government again. Neither should you think that because a newspaper with a very clear anti-Muslim agenda reports on a single nutcase putting some Sharia law stickers up in the UK, that there is a wave of support for it among the local Muslim community. There isn't even support for it in most Islamic countries.

    As for that "Islam garbage becoming predominant here", Portugal has been shaped by Islamic influences for a millennia. From the inter-breeding of races to the palm trees in the streets. From the agricultural techniques to Muslim-based names of areas and parts of the country, like Algarve (Al-Gharb), Alfama (Al-Hamma), Bensafrim (Ben Safarim) and, (yep, you guessed it) Benfica.

    Edit: Why do I have a suspicious feeling that I've just wasted my time typing all that?
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2011
  14. Mozi

    Mozi Zer0 as a number

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    Welcome to Beyond Unreal off topic..:lol:
     
  15. Plumb_Drumb

    Plumb_Drumb yumb

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    read first paragraph, if not longer than 3 lines.

    Skim rest of "article" for insults and hyperbole.

    read last paragraph.

    Feel tired and go make a sandwich.
     
  16. [GU]elmur_fud

    [GU]elmur_fud I have balls of Depleted Uranium

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    I read the whole thing before the above comments were posted. An interesting read to be certain.
     
  17. Hadmar

    Hadmar Queen Bitch of the Universe

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    Thanks for that post. I'm so fed up with the whole anti Musilm/immigrant/foreigner news propaganda bullshit and the effect it has that I can usually barely muster enough energy to post a line of sarcasm or two.
     
  18. Peavey

    Peavey Rattus Norvegicus

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    Israphel, very well written sir :tup:
     
  19. Hazel.H

    Hazel.H Member

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    Since when was the Daily Fail a reliable news source? :lol: I recognise the guy in the photo, he's in the documentary My Brother the Islamist - this might put the article into perpective:

    [M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCkU18CoJ1o[/M]

    Religious / political stickering and posters are nothing new in Britain, it's just the sharia thing that's unusual.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2011
  20. Benfica

    Benfica European Redneck

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    I read your long and inspired post entirely. You don’t have to apologize about anything, I’m the one that has to do that to Sir_Brizz and Mozi.
    The fact that I picked an article from that newspaper, does not change anything about the general issue of Islam, it only means that I have to be more careful about what I choose to post, is it not? In fact I’m not going to pick because anyone is free to go to Google or Youtube and search. Everyone is free to see for themselves, using critical thought and be aware that there may be bias.

    All of what you said deserves a reply, but it’s such a long post that I have to focus or leave the rest for later. Sorry.
    What you seem to miss is that neutral or good influences do not come from a religion, they come from a civilization. The bad influences like a 550 year war, yes, that was motivated by religion. Convert, be sub-human and pay for the privilege of being alive, or just die.

    There is (or at least was) a big difference between what one can call Muslim-based and Arabic-based. Islam is a religion, not a civilization or a race or a culture. Religion (without an underlying civilization of clever, ingenious and knowledge oriented people) does not produce anything by itself, besides useless monuments and copies of storytelling books infested with circular logic and delusions. Religion is dogma that leads to a single way of seeing the world. If not taken lightly, it suppresses different ideas and scientific achievements. What’s more, Jesus Christ was actually an excellent person, well intended, one of the best human beings ever lived, and STILL Christianism managed to distort His message and lead to the well know horrible outcomes. How about Islam, where the prophet became a warlord and a pedophile?

    More. There seems to be a misinterpretation of where I wanted to get at with the Dailymail article, regardless if it is tabloid style. Again, I don’t mix religion with culture or immigrants or races. Showing that those are very different things is actually the reason for the thread and its title. It’s exactly the opposite of using the article “as a stick to beat an entire culture”, is it not? How can someone accuse me of bashing a culture just because I hate a religion and link to a picture of a guy of European culture?

    It’s none of my business how people live in countries where Islam is predominant. This is not about Arabs, this is about Islam in Europe. I mean, it’s very unpleasant to see Arab or Persian or Pakistani people (women and girls for the most part) stuck in such a backward way of life due to the religion, but what can I do? However, propagating those ways here will make Europe accept stuff that was abolished 200 years ago or more. This is BS. It is okay to criticize Catholicism for the Inquisition or pedophilia scandals, regardless of its followers. Likewise, if SOME Muslim MEN behave like street thugs, if they are into polygamy, if they fancy young girls, if they gang-rape, if they use the status of Muslim to induce fear, if they deceive people, if they can’t do anything else besides propagating speech, if they make death threats, if they are planning overthrowing democracy, I don’t care what excuse they give, they are low life criminals to be taken into jail or deported. If they do so because their religion allows or mandates, then the religion deserves very strong criticism, no other way around it. Besides, if these guys are giving a wrong image of Islam, it is the other Muslims responsibility to make the effort to fix and improve it, not me or other non-Muslims.
     

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