Official BeyondUnreal Photography Thread

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Igoy

dea ex machina
Jan 20, 2008
2,146
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Norwich, England.
slave-riot.co.uk
I don't believe B&W should be a scapegoat when the color in your photos go wrong. I think you should either do it intentionally or give your clients the option because you already have a similar photo in color. Every color photo that is worth keeping can be processed in a way that makes the colors work for you. I know because i've shot in difficult places like Bars/Pubs which have all kinds of lighting. Sometimes you have to process your subject with a different color temperature than your background. With that being said, the benefits have to outweigh the work involved.

I never said I viewed B&W as an easy way out. You said you thought it was more challenging, and I said I disagree, I thought colour. If I was shooting for a client then of course they would get the option of what they wanted. But seeing as I shoot mostly for myself, I prefer to work in colour as I think it gives the most satisfying results. B&W can look dangerously bland a lot of the time.
 

Israphel

Sim senhor, efeitos especial
Sep 26, 2004
1,136
0
0
53
Lisboa,Portugal
A question to the Nikon users here: which program do you prefer to use to post-process .nef files and do you require special plug-ins and/or converters? I'm considering getting Adobe Lightroom (since it costs half for me as a student, but I'll have a go at the trial first), does any of you use it as a primary tool and are you satisfied with it?

I shoot with a D3 and use Capture NX2. I wouldn't touch Lightroom with a long stick to be perfectly honest. Lightroom (and Apple Aperture) are both superb in their UI, really easy and to use a create a good workflow, as well as being excellent for library/cataloguing. BUT (and it's a big one) with the files from my D3 (and to a lesser extent, my older D80) both LR and Aperture give me inferior image quality.
Nikon are more secretive than Canon and others with the algorithms for their NEF files, so third party software producers like Adobe and Apple have to kind of reverse engineer the files in order to create an algorithm for decoding the NEF files....Basically, neither company has managed to get it right, and if you're not using Nikon software, then you're not seeing the best from your Nikon images.
Mostly, in LR I see a lack of contrast and a dullness in the colour when compared to NX2. There are a couple of reasons for this, because not only does NX2 have the better NEF conversion, as I said above, but it's also designed to read the settings of your camera. By that, I mean it will look at saturation, contrast, brightness, sharpness etc settings that you have in your camera and apply them to the converted RAW file (in the same way that it would if you were shooting JPEGs). This means that your RAW images look almost identical to the image you see on the camera's LCD screen (which is an embedded jpeg thumb). No other program will read these settings, only NX2, and the amount of time this can save you in post processing is astonishing.
Anyway, I did a comparison about a year ago and posted the images in my Deviant Art journal. These shots are straight out of the camera, no adjustments at all, converted straight into a jpeg and resized. I used Aperture as a comparison, but in my experience, Lightroom is the same

Notice the yellows on the horizon, and the colour/contrast of the plants in the foreground, which are more vibrant
conversion2byandymumfor.jpg


Speaks for itself here, the reds here are so much stronger, as is the contrast and the definition of the blacks.
rawconversion3byandymum.jpg


This one is more subtle, but again the greens are more vibrant in NX2, as well as the yellows and orange on the horizon.
rawconversion1byandymum.jpg


What you can't see in these images is that NX2 also seems to resolve more detail than LR or Aperture. That may sound crazy, and I don't know the exact reasons, but I assume some softness comes in via the conversion process, and applying sharpening later doesn't give the same effect (again, because of the conversion algorithms). My images just look sharper and better in NX2. I was so blown away when I first started using it, that it felt almost like I had a new camera....it's that good.

OK, so moving on from the conversion. NX2 also has a far wider and more effective range of adjustment controls than anything else out there except for PS (and I think NX2 is much more intuitive than PS). I don't know if you've ever seen Viveza or any of Nik softwares U-Point controls (NX2 is actually made by Nik software) but it's better than anything I have ever seen for local adjustments of everything from colour, shadows, contrast, colour temperature, sharpness, noise reduction etc etc. There's some information about it on the site http://www.capturenx.com/en/intuitive_operation/color/index.html but you really have to use it to see how clever it is. You don't ever have to bother with selections or layer masks like you do in PS, and you're making these adjustments non destructively onto the NEF file, so it doesn't do any damage to the master file.
Basically, since I've started using it, I've almost never had to use PS again. I spend a lot less time processing images because NX2 gives me better images right out of the camera, and its much quicker to get the image finished.

It's also pretty good at batch processing (important to me, as I shoot a lot of weddings besides my landscape work) although I admit, it's not as quick at applying global adjustments to a large amount of images as Aperture or Lightroom.

The downsides are that it isn't as intuitive to use as LR, it's not as fast unless you have a pretty powerful system (I'm using an i7 quad core iMac 27" with 8gb of RAM and it runs perfectly on that, but on my 2gb Macbook Pro, it really runs quite slowly). It also does crash occasionally (although it's pretty rare. I use it intensively for thousands and thousands of images).
The library and cataloguing isn't as elegant as LR or Aperture, although I've found I got used to it quite quickly and actually quite like the way it works now.
Finally, you need an additional piece of software (Nikon Transfer, which is a free download) to actually import the images from your camera. It's no problem though, it opens up as soon as you connect the camera, asks you where you want to import the images too (with NX2 files as default), and then opens NX2 automatically when the import is finished...so I don't see any drawback in having to use it.

Why not try out the free trial, and actually compare the image quality yourself http://nikonimglib.com/cnx2/

My wedding biz partner uses Nikon and shoots in RAW exclusively. He edits all of his photos in Lightroom and finalizes them in photoshop. There are some occasions where he has to use Capture NX. This is usually the case when he isn't getting accurate colors, sharpness, or noise reduction from Lightroom.

Lightroom and Photoshop have recently been updated and so has ACR. The quality levels are much higher now.

There are other RAW processors out there like DCRAW which offer superior image quality to every tool out there. What these raw processors lack are extensive editing features. I am willing to take a little hit in image quality if it means a faster work flow.

I guess we both do enough shooting to know that everyone has different methods, and what works best for one doesn't for another etc etc...
But for me, while LR is faster on it's own the NX2, editting in Lightroom and then finalizing them in PS is considerably slower for me than doing the entire editting process in NX2 and not needing to use PS at all, particularly when taking into account that I can get my images looking exactly how I want them in NX2 with less editting than I can in LR.
My workflow uses View NX quite extensively for selecting keepers and deleting unwanted images, as well as rating them. ViewNX works seemlessly side by side with NX2, so I just switch between the programs when I want to edit them (1 click). It's a different workflow from what I used to do with Aperture, but now I've got used to it, I've found it's much more effective. Although again, I'm just talking about me personally here.

The only thing I use PS for is doing the final edits on the page spreads that I use for the wedding albums. I'm using Kiss books right now http://kissweddingbooks.com/blog/ The quality of the books, and the customer care are absolutely brilliant.
 
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Igoy

dea ex machina
Jan 20, 2008
2,146
8
38
35
Norwich, England.
slave-riot.co.uk
My Birthday Cupcake
4645435707_9e1ff1a6b6_o.png


Geranium icing and cherries in the sponge, yum yum yum. :D It's a little bit out of focus as it was really dark in the room... also I wanted to eat it. :D But I like the softness of it.
 

JohnDoe641

Killer Fools Pro
Staff member
Nov 8, 2000
5,330
51
48
42
N.J.
www.zombo.com
I shoot with a D3 and use Capture NX2. I wouldn't touch Lightroom with a long stick to be perfectly honest. Lightroom (and Apple Aperture) are both superb in their UI, really easy and to use a create a good workflow, as well as being excellent for library/cataloguing. BUT (and it's a big one) with the files from my D3 (and to a lesser extent, my older D80) both LR and Aperture give me inferior image quality.
Nikon are more secretive than Canon and others with the algorithms for their NEF files, so third party software producers like Adobe and Apple have to kind of reverse engineer the files in order to create an algorithm for decoding the NEF files....Basically, neither company has managed to get it right, and if you're not using Nikon software, then you're not seeing the best from your Nikon images.
Mostly, in LR I see a lack of contrast and a dullness in the colour when compared to NX2. There are a couple of reasons for this, because not only does NX2 have the better NEF conversion, as I said above, but it's also designed to read the settings of your camera. By that, I mean it will look at saturation, contrast, brightness, sharpness etc settings that you have in your camera and apply them to the converted RAW file (in the same way that it would if you were shooting JPEGs). This means that your RAW images look almost identical to the image you see on the camera's LCD screen (which is an embedded jpeg thumb). No other program will read these settings, only NX2, and the amount of time this can save you in post processing is astonishing.
Anyway, I did a comparison about a year ago and posted the images in my Deviant Art journal. These shots are straight out of the camera, no adjustments at all, converted straight into a jpeg and resized. I used Aperture as a comparison, but in my experience, Lightroom is the same

What you can't see in these images is that NX2 also seems to resolve more detail than LR or Aperture. That may sound crazy, and I don't know the exact reasons, but I assume some softness comes in via the conversion process, and applying sharpening later doesn't give the same effect (again, because of the conversion algorithms). My images just look sharper and better in NX2. I was so blown away when I first started using it, that it felt almost like I had a new camera....it's that good.

OK, so moving on from the conversion. NX2 also has a far wider and more effective range of adjustment controls than anything else out there except for PS (and I think NX2 is much more intuitive than PS). I don't know if you've ever seen Viveza or any of Nik softwares U-Point controls (NX2 is actually made by Nik software) but it's better than anything I have ever seen for local adjustments of everything from colour, shadows, contrast, colour temperature, sharpness, noise reduction etc etc. There's some information about it on the site http://www.capturenx.com/en/intuitive_operation/color/index.html but you really have to use it to see how clever it is. You don't ever have to bother with selections or layer masks like you do in PS, and you're making these adjustments non destructively onto the NEF file, so it doesn't do any damage to the master file.
Basically, since I've started using it, I've almost never had to use PS again. I spend a lot less time processing images because NX2 gives me better images right out of the camera, and its much quicker to get the image finished.

It's also pretty good at batch processing (important to me, as I shoot a lot of weddings besides my landscape work) although I admit, it's not as quick at applying global adjustments to a large amount of images as Aperture or Lightroom.

The downsides are that it isn't as intuitive to use as LR, it's not as fast unless you have a pretty powerful system (I'm using an i7 quad core iMac 27" with 8gb of RAM and it runs perfectly on that, but on my 2gb Macbook Pro, it really runs quite slowly). It also does crash occasionally (although it's pretty rare. I use it intensively for thousands and thousands of images).
The library and cataloguing isn't as elegant as LR or Aperture, although I've found I got used to it quite quickly and actually quite like the way it works now.
Finally, you need an additional piece of software (Nikon Transfer, which is a free download) to actually import the images from your camera. It's no problem though, it opens up as soon as you connect the camera, asks you where you want to import the images too (with NX2 files as default), and then opens NX2 automatically when the import is finished...so I don't see any drawback in having to use it.
One of the reasons why it seems to resolve better is that it simply reads the on camera sharpness settings which other raw converters don't do iirc. Take some pictures with the d3 with all settings at neutral, sharpness and other settings at 0 then separately import it into both NX2 and Photoslop.

Save the imported file as a tiff then open it in Photoslop. You can just make a duel layer file with both versions so you can flip between the two. There probably shouldn't be any difference. If there is, I have a lot of photos I need to re-process. :c
 
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Zur

surrealistic mad cow
Jul 8, 2002
11,708
8
38
49

http://artistwanted.org/jason935
Jason is a hobbyist photographer living in the Tokyo area of Japan. He has never properly studied photography, but has done a lot of self teaching via the internet and other friends whom are photographers either professionally or a hobbyist like himself. His works are more of a reflection of beauty in everyday life. Where most people have a preference for film or digital; Jason prefers film, but also shoots digital if he feels it would better fit the shot.

You're too modest :)
 

Israphel

Sim senhor, efeitos especial
Sep 26, 2004
1,136
0
0
53
Lisboa,Portugal
One of the reasons why it seems to resolve better is that it simply reads the on camera sharpness settings which other raw converters don't do iirc. Take some pictures with the d3 with all settings at neutral, sharpness and other settings at 0 then separately import it into both NX2 and Photoslop.

Save the imported file as a tiff then open it in Photoslop. You can just make a duel layer file with both versions so you can flip between the two. There probably shouldn't be any difference. If there is, I have a lot of photos I need to re-process. :c

I tried this a long time ago, and it's more complex than that. Sharpening in a digital image is all about micro contrast at a pixel level. Once the image is saved as a TIFF, you're effectively "locking" the pixel information, and any changes you make are going to degrade the image...even if only subtly. Hence, for absolute quality you need to have the images as sharp as possible without having to make any changes to the file after it's recorded (or it least before it's saved for output as a TIFF or JPEG).
For web use, then it really doesn't matter, but most of my prints are sold at between 40cm and 60cm, and at this size, the difference really matters a lot to me.

Before I decided to switch my workflow to NX2, I spent a lot of time comparing images in PS, LR and Aperture because I make a significant part of my living through photography, and have to spend a lot of time in front of the computer editing and processing, so I want to get the best IQ possible with the least amount of processing time.

I worked with LR for a couple of years and it was nice, but when I changed my camera to a D3, I really noticed a significant dip in IQ output on the RAW file. When I experimented with NX2 I really noticed an improvement in sharpness even with all the camera settings set to 0 (this is irrelevent anyway, as within NX2 you can opt to remove the in camera settings from the image). At 100% more detail is resolved in NX2 than in LR, Aperture or ACR, and when sharpening is applied to the RAW file, it looks better in NX2. Seriously, I experimented with this a lot, because to switch my entire workflow to NX2 was massively inconvenient and not something I wanted to do, but I couldn't deny the difference in IQ.

It's been debated in quite a few threads over at dpreview, and Thom Hogan claims it's because of Adobe and Apple not being able to decode Nikon's NEF algorithms. I honestly don't understand the reasons completely, but I really do see a significant difference.

Polychron said:
I have my doubts. I think it's just a matter of selective color settings. I bet you can achieve the same look with the default PS raw converter.
In my experience, that's really not the case.

007MIKE said:
I have a ton of wedding book referrals from folks.. most are pretty spendy. I'll check it out. I signed up using your name as a referral

Cheers Mike. I just took delivery of a book today actually...it's stunning. I'll get some pictures of it and put them up before I deliver it to the clients.

Right, haven't posted any shots for a while, so here's a bunch of landscapes from earlier this year

Quiraing, Isle of Skye. Long exposure at sunrise.
land14.jpg


Western Portugal. One second exposure
water58.jpg


Light rays at dawn over the Sound of Rasaay, Western Scotland. 400mm
water45.jpg


Old Man Of Storr, Skye. Got up at 4am, hiked up through the forest in the dark, and then up the side of the hill (it takes about an hour) and just got rubbish flat light...but it's still an incredible location. 1 minute exposure.
land12.jpg


Elgol beach Skye. Again, I was hoping for better light at sunset, but the thick cloud never broke.
water40.jpg


West coast of Portugal. Two minute exposure at sunset.
water56.jpg
 

JohnDoe641

Killer Fools Pro
Staff member
Nov 8, 2000
5,330
51
48
42
N.J.
www.zombo.com
Interesting! Have you tried CS5's import function, from what I've read in a few places, it's supposed to be much better than cs4 at importing and using NEF files.
 

Rambowjo

Das Protoss
Aug 3, 2005
5,073
5
38
33
Tapeland
You take amazing pictures Israphel. Those long exposure pictures are incredible, making the water look like fog. I have to try that out one day myself.
 

OO7MIKE

Mr. Sexy
May 2, 2000
5,033
124
63
Nalicity, NC
Israphel: It sounds like your making good money off of your work and rightfully, from the look of things. You have outstanding landscape photos. I am curious as to how you make money off of landscape photos. I ask not because of pure curiosity but because your business model has to be very different from mine in order to become profitable.

Where do you get/find your clients?
What do they normally ask of you?
What do they use the photos for?
All expenses payed?
What is the most profitable way of distributing your work?

If your not comfortable answering here you can PM me :)
 

BillyBadAss

Strong Cock of The North
May 25, 1999
8,880
61
48
49
Tokyo, JP
flickr.com
Israphel: It sounds like your making good money off of your work and rightfully, from the look of things. You have outstanding landscape photos. I am curious as to how you make money off of landscape photos. I ask not because of pure curiosity but because your business model has to be very different from mine in order to become profitable.

Where do you get/find your clients?
What do they normally ask of you?
What do they use the photos for?
All expenses payed?
What is the most profitable way of distributing your work?

If your not comfortable answering here you can PM me :)

I find this interesting as well. Please share this knowledge. :)
 

IronMonkey

Moi?
Apr 23, 2005
1,746
0
36
63
Scotland
www.margrave.myzen.co.uk
Again, I was hoping for better light at sunset, but the thick cloud never broke.

One gets used to that in Scotland!

Stunning shots, Israphel. That's the sort of quality that makes the rest of us want to give up. :)

As it's a nice morning here, I thought I'd try and get a shot of Dumbarton Rock (has to be in the morning as the rock lies East-West and in the evening all of the interesting detail is in shadow). As can be seen from the foreground in the first shot, there was plenty of sunlight but unfortunately there was also a cloud whose shadow lay right across the rock. :(

[screenshot]http://www.margrave.myzen.co.uk/images/DumbartonRock/DumbartonRock.jpg [/screenshot]

It got better briefly later on:

[screenshot]http://www.margrave.myzen.co.uk/images/DumbartonRock/DumbartonRock2.jpg [/screenshot]
 

Rambowjo

Das Protoss
Aug 3, 2005
5,073
5
38
33
Tapeland
One gets used to that in Scotland!

Stunning shots, Israphel. That's the sort of quality that makes the rest of us want to give up. :)

As it's a nice morning here, I thought I'd try and get a shot of Dumbarton Rock (has to be in the morning as the rock lies East-West and in the evening all of the interesting detail is in shadow). As can be seen from the foreground in the first shot, there was plenty of sunlight but unfortunately there was also a cloud whose shadow lay right across the rock. :(

[screenshot]http://www.margrave.myzen.co.uk/images/DumbartonRock/DumbartonRock.jpg [/screenshot]

It got better briefly later on:

[screenshot]http://www.margrave.myzen.co.uk/images/DumbartonRock/DumbartonRock2.jpg [/screenshot]

You're shooting at an ISO much higher than necessary. Can you control that with your G3, or is it all auto? The quality could've been much higher with a lower ISO.
 

IronMonkey

Moi?
Apr 23, 2005
1,746
0
36
63
Scotland
www.margrave.myzen.co.uk
You're shooting at an ISO much higher than necessary. Can you control that with your G3, or is it all auto? The quality could've been much higher with a lower ISO.

Actually, those were shot with the ISO manually set to 50. :(

I suppose when I did the raw extraction I could have attempted to apply more noise reduction but from a starting point of only 4.1M pixels I didn't feel like losing more detail. :) Nevertheless, I think it is a legitimate criticism that I should have considered applying more noise reduction.