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Not exactly the best publicity - Video

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by GNAT, Feb 26, 2004.

  1. JaFO

    JaFO bugs are features too ...

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    How do you stop genocide ...
    if you sent in soldiers, but tie their hands behind their backs when it comes to the defense of themselves and the "innocent" civillians they were supposed to protect ?

    How do you stop it if the people you are protecting only use your protection to safely hide their own soldiers ?

    How do you stop genocide if your army isn't prepared to sacrifice their lives as they're so used to the fact that being a soldier was the safest job in the world up until that time ?
     
  2. MetalMickey

    MetalMickey Banned

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    I would say you stop genocide using interventionist tactics, just like the ones that were used. The UK army hadnt exactly had a safe time of it up until that time. Northern Ireland? Falklands? Gulf Wars?

    The political will just wasnt there.
     
  3. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    I guess 'dropping' the enemy isn't good enough. Hey I know a few threads where this could come in handy.
     
  4. mat69

    mat69 just fooling around

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    Sorry but you call the actions in Kosovo genocide? I'm not sure how you define genocide but imo it was not genocide, that does not mean that I don't support the actions which were taken against Serbia.
    And don't forget this war was far away, as well as the first war in the early 90s :rolleyes: (only a yugoslavian air plane flew over my home town, but not far away ...)
    Imo most central european politicians are cowards only trying not to burn their own fingers while people die close to them. One of the best examples imo is Schüssel the chancelor of Austria, with one hand they take money of our pretty poor army and with the other they want (the future will show if this happens) to sign an european defence pact, and yes our "neutral state" is just a farce.
    "CK, you obviously aren't in the US" that's the point, maybe (!) you get pro propaganda from all chanels available in the US from some more from some less, or maybe we just get the contra propaganda, that's why I like the I-net so much ;)
     
  5. MP_Lord_Kee

    MP_Lord_Kee New Member

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    Just wounding an enemy is "good" in a trenched war situation as each wounded enemy soldier requiers atleast a few soldiers to carry them to safety. And that means you have less enemy soldiers shooting back at you. Also the screams of agony of someone with hot lead in their belly might have a demoralizing effect among the other soldiers. In Finland during the "Winter War" soldiers where adviced to aim at the belly of the enemy just because of this reason. Also, it is a larger area to hit than trying instantly kill the enemy with a head shot or smilar.
    In the "modern" urban warfare fought in cities, where the goal is to secure the area, things are a bit different. Sometimes the troops have advanced beyond the front lines, neglecting the "wilderness" and concentrating on dominating the urban areas. A wounded enemy soldier would become a burden on your troops instead. So, taking out someone who is wounded, and you are still in a enemy infested/active area, seems like the valid thing to do in my opinion.

    Darn, gotta go, car pool in a hurry so have no time to check and edit what I wrote :9

    //Kee
     
  6. Cold Killer

    Cold Killer I will Kill Bill

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    Yeah, I'm not. Most of the CNN I see is snagged from the internet.
     
  7. MetalMickey

    MetalMickey Banned

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    The serbs had already practised genocide against the muslims in bosnia and croatia. What do you think Milosevic is in the Hague for?
     
  8. mat69

    mat69 just fooling around

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    But where is the genocide in Kosovo?!
     
  9. MetalMickey

    MetalMickey Banned

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    Last edited: Feb 27, 2004
  10. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    Okay MM, I see where you are coming from. If you'll notice any commonality in any of my threads, it's defending the military, while leaving the government that uses the military fair game for attack.

    In other words, you have cleared up for me at least, that you supported US action in Kosovo and do not support US action in Iraq.

    While you say that the bombing of television stations (weren't those allegedly "command and control" structures that killed quite a few civilian technicians?) and the Chinese embassy "wasn't too bright", you say that the soldiers in Iraq are trained to be sick fu*ks. I understand where you are coming from, all I am saying is that instead of attacking the soldiers, who believe me, act the same in all conflicts, bash the politicians, the politics and the policy.

    mat69: I can only comment on US programs from my point of view, living in the US. Believe me, there is plenty of blatant support and blatant criticism of any administration that gets into power. The only way you get "fair and balanced" here, is to flip channels frequently, if you can stomach it. I try to use the internet as much as I can as well, but if you don't believe that 99.9% of news networks, editors, and reporters have some kind of bias, you've got your head in the sand. They all do. Everyone and every organization has an agenda. And if they don't, their boss does. It's funny though, how if we agree with a certain bias or point of view, we find that to be "truth", and discount points of view that don't agree with ours.
     
  11. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    I don't believe you. Soldiers are still human, and can have less trouble killing a sandnigger than a european.
     
  12. mat69

    mat69 just fooling around

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    5eleven I think the same as you do as it seems. It is completly "funny", so many people friends of mine etc. always think that you and most other people in the US are manipulated by the media not considering that it could be also the other way round and not considering that everyone is manipulated in some way. :rolleyes:
    A few years ago I was also completly anti-US but now I've changed (I am only a bit anti-us now ;) ), now I think that my point of view was pretty stupid and most important unfounded.

    MetalMickey: You call this genocide?! Less (less is good, I guess even less than 200) than 3000 people for sure haven been killed before the bombings and this shall be genocide? In the media they told us that 10.000 or more have been killed and that there are concentration camps as they were in the early 90s. And soon later they were sure that there are more than 11.000 dead people ...
    The bombings killed around 2000 civilians.
    Yes using cluster-bombs in areas where people live reduces the risk of civil casaulties. :rolleyes:
    People have been interviewed and they said that they had (!) the choice to leave or to be killed, so this was an expulsion but not a genocide. There were also villages which the Serbians "destroyed", but journalists asked the inhabitans (albanians) if this is true, they told that the villages haven been destroyed by the bombs of the NATO...

    There was a documentation on this issue on german TV (WDR) three years ago, you can get some german information about it here --> http://online.wdr.de/online/news/kosovoluege/

    Thousands of serbian, jews and roma were driven away after (!) the NATO attacked and the UCK also killed many of them.

    And about your link: It would be interesting what had happened after "Last update 27/04/99", so after the war! What did the soldiers find there, how many dead (massacred) people did they find there.
    They found out for example that there was not a massacre in Rugovo on civilians but on UCK fighters who lost against the soldiers of Yugoslavia.

    But I'm happy that Milosevic is in the Hague and I also hope that they'll get Mladic (but somehow they don't get him ...) and other high military personal, also from Croatia which was not an angle either.

    Btw. sorry for OT.

    I am not sure what to post about this video, my first impression was also that this is a redneck, but the following posts let me think more than just shouting out something to judge the soldiers behavoir in a negative way.
    The same thing is in Israel imo. it is easier to sentence people who killed a child with a plastic gun than to be there yourself. Being under constant pression of losing your life ... as many interviewed soldiers said they don't have the time to think, they start thinking afterwards.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2004
  13. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    Wow Ros, I'm kind of surprised at you. I hope that the SN comment was meant to be tongue in cheek, or sarcastic against the United States as previous posts using that word. If it isn't, I'm offended, and I don't think that language is at all appropriate.

    Sure, there are soldiers and people everywhere that may seem to enjoy killing for killing's sake. There are also serial killers roaming the streets. Nonetheless, I really doubt that anyone in any war zone makes a distinction as to the race of the person they are fighting against. Soldiers in combat are prejudiced against those they are fighting, period.

    Remember shouts of "kraut" and "zip" during WWII, and internment camps, etc.

    Maybe I'm way off base, and I just don't understand your point. :D Please explain.
     
  14. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    I'm allowed to say sandnigger, I'm one :p
    Nah I could have said "middle eastern" but sandnigger proves my point so much more.

    What I meant was that there is a good chance that if this war would be against let's say Canada, alot less incidents like this would happen.

    I said it only because I firmly disagree that soldiers act the same disregarding who they are fighting and why.
     
  15. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    I suppose that's an intersting point, but Canada isn't European. Let me put it this way: When countries wage war against any other country, race, religion, whatever, there's a huge amount of propoganda disguised as nationalism, in order to motivate troops and attempt to ensure support for the effort. I'm not saying there's anything necessarily wrong with that, if the action is legitimate or appropriate, I'm just saying it's a fact nonetheless. I don't believe any country is excepted from that fact. When questions arise, such as this, despite their context, it always tends to enrage and support the positions of those opposed to war for whatever reason.

    So I guess I disagree. Watch "Canadian Bacon". Although a sarcastic comedy, it illustrates my point. Americans and American soldiers can easily be influenced by the will and dictates of the policy of their government, rightly OR wrongly.
     
  16. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    And how much racism was provoked in Somalia?
    The way I see it racism in war plays a bigger role than you just covered, mainly because you forget a few parties with interests.

    well that's just about all I wanted to say... *crawls back to bed*
     
  17. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    I'm not really getting what you are saying.

    I don't want this to devolve into a race issue, if that's what you are getting at.

    In Somalia, I think they referred to the Somalis as "skinnys". As I said before, they referred to the Germans as "krauts", the Japanese as "zips" and the Viet Namese were "gooks" during that war. Currently, I think the US Army refers to the Iraqis as "haji's".

    I don't really refer to that as a racial issue or concept, although I would imagine that Somalis, Japanese, Viet Namese, Germans and Iraqis would probably take exception to it, and rightly so. Remember, the US military reflects more of it's population than you might like to believe, and there were many African Americans in Somalia. They probably referred to the Somalis as "skinnys" as well.

    Regardless, I never said it was right or wrong, I was just pointing out a fact. You claimed that for American soldiers it is easier to kill a middle easterner than a european, and I disagreed based on the aforementioned reasons, citing europeans (Germans) as examples of how they were equally hated among Americans and especially soldiers, because they were the enemy. I don't personally believe that it has anything to do with race. Virtually any soldier in any war that has been shot at or had to sleep with one eye open, constantly aware of his surroundings, will probably not embrace the race, religion, or culture of those he fought against or was shot at by. Sometimes, experiences like those can last a lifetime, and unfortunately those biases get passed down generation to generation.

    I'm not saying that those experiences don't breed hatred or racism, but I'm not saying that they do either. And I disagree that Somalia or Iraq are somehow different than Kosovo, or any other military action, based on the fact that the people in Somalia or Iraq are of a different skin color. I just don't buy it.

    Have a good sleep. :D
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2004
  18. MetalMickey

    MetalMickey Banned

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    I said the intervention was to prevent genocide. Genocide had happened elsewhere, and looked like it was going to happen again. Understand?
     
  19. jaeg

    jaeg PopeyeTurbo

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    I thought it was well-known that video was faked.
     
  20. mat69

    mat69 just fooling around

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    What did you say MM? --> I would say you stop genocide using interventionist tactics, just like the ones that were used.
    They told us that it was genocide, and that's what I posted, but later they found out that many information were faked but they backed the reasons for the war before.
    Then I posted about some results of the NATO intervention.
    And what was your link for?! I know some people from Croatia as well as from Bosnia and what had happened in Kosovo is not xompareable with what has happened before (like one dead person in nearly every family, or at least one raped in some areas ...). I think the media made a kind of hype out of it.

    I'am just curious but how do we know that a video is faked or not, especially in this case?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2004

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