No indictment - Ferguson

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cryptophreak

unbalanced
Jul 2, 2011
1,011
62
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I think it depends on what you value.

If you want to live in the kind of society in which we all babysit one another, if you think an orderly society is more important than the rights of individuals, if you get hysterical at the idea of some unwarranted violence from time to time, if you think the state will always serve your best interests, and if you think that laws deter the kind of person who wants to kill his neighbor without just cause, sure, maybe guns should not only be limited but banned outright.

If, on the other hand, you think the right of self-determination is absolute, violence is a thing that happens sometimes and we should just fucking deal with it like grown-ups, and you would rather potentially get shot by a lunatic than let some prick in a suit dictate your life to you like he's your goddamn parent, maybe guns are your best friend and the state can suck on its background checks.
 

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
26,020
83
48
I remember all those stories of legal gun owners being the ones committing all the violence out there.
 

cryptophreak

unbalanced
Jul 2, 2011
1,011
62
48
I always consult my lawyer before selecting a murder weapon, and when shooting innocent people in California I make sure to use reduced-capacity magazines only.
 

Jacks:Revenge

╠╣E╚╚O
Jun 18, 2006
10,065
218
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somewhere; sometime?
banned outright.
see what I mean?
childish.

no one ever said ban.
but it's the first thing you say.

Freudian slip like a mother trucker.
it's just sad how tightly you cling to it. firearms discharged in the household more often result in the death of the owner and/or owners relatives than the Big Bad Wolf. very simple statistics.

guns are alright.
our gun culture is not alright. the problems we face in America are unique to America for a reason. the regulations we have are not quite working. I'd like to see strategies and options applied to our regulations to strengthen them. you'd apparently like us to return to the virtual Wild West. your inability to see any middle ground on this very wide spectrum is disturbing to say the least.
 

cryptophreak

unbalanced
Jul 2, 2011
1,011
62
48
see what I mean?
childish.

no one ever said ban.
but it's the first thing you say.

Freudian slip like a mother trucker.

Yes, I'm illustrating a continuum of attitudes toward guns, from the Socialist Party on one end, which wants to outlaw civilian gun ownership, all the way up through people like myself. Why it bothers you that I should make a point is not immediately evident.

firearms discharged in the household more often result in the death of the owner and/or owners relatives than the Big Bad Wolf. very simple statistics.

That is indeed a simple statistic. I don't know if it's right or has any merit in our discussion, but it's definitely simple. Tossing out an unbidden factoid and saying "very simple statistics" as though I have struggled to understand it (presumably because I am "childish") is not very convincing, and looks a bit like a tantrum mistaken for an argument.

guns are alright.
our gun culture is not alright. the problems we face in America are unique to America for a reason.

Not really.

Anywhere you have a social order that leaves people feeling like they have no recourse, they'll resort to aggression and violence. Introduce a little humanity, care for the mentally ill properly, treat every case of poverty as an intolerable failure of the system, and you'll find things improve dramatically.

But we don't care about people in America, we care about order, so the situation will not improve. You can see it in Ferguson. When the people demonstrate their outrage, all we can manage is to tell them that we "will not tolerate" what they're doing (Governor’s words) and "have no sympathy" for them (President’s words). If I were Mayor of Ferguson, or Governor of Missouri, or President of the United States, I imagine the responsible thing to do would be to sit down with residents and ask what I could do for them. That part is probably coming any day now. Just as soon as we’re done herding them with guns and tear gas, I think.

the regulations we have are not quite working. I'd like to see strategies and options applied to our regulations to strengthen them.

Or, realize that regulation is a solution to a problem we have misidentified.

When people want to shoot each other, regulating their access to weapons is just masking the problem. Instead, ask why they want to shoot each other, and what has lead them to be so profoundly disconnected from their basic compassion that they see this as an acceptable option.

you'd apparently like us to return to the virtual Wild West. your inability to see any middle ground on this very wide spectrum is disturbing to say the least.

I see a middle ground and I don't want it. That's not disturbing, it's my opinion. If you can convince me that I should want a middle ground I'll gladly take it.
 
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Carbon

Altiloquent bloviator.
Mar 23, 2013
557
10
18
Yes, I'm illustrating a continuum of attitudes toward guns, from the Socialist Party on one end, which wants to outlaw civilian gun ownership, all the way up through people like myself. Why it bothers you that I should make a point is not immediately evident.



That is indeed a simple statistic. I don't know if it's right or has any merit in our discussion, but it's definitely simple. Tossing out an unbidden factoid and saying "very simple statistics" as though I have struggled to understand it (presumably because I am "childish") is not very convincing, and looks a bit like a tantrum mistaken for an argument.



Not really.

Anywhere you have a social order that leaves people feeling like they have no recourse, they'll resort to aggression and violence. Introduce a little humanity, care for the mentally ill properly, treat every case of poverty as an intolerable failure of the system, and you'll find things improve dramatically.

But we don't care about people in America, we care about order, so the situation will not improve. You can see it in Ferguson. When the people demonstrate their outrage, all we can manage is to tell them that we "will not tolerate" what they're doing (Governor’s words) and "have no sympathy" for them (President’s words). If I were Mayor of Ferguson, or Governor of Missouri, or President of the United States, I imagine the responsible thing to do would be to sit down with residents and ask what I could do for them. That part is probably coming any day now. Just as soon as we’re done herding them with guns and tear gas, I think.


Or, realize that regulation is a solution to a problem we have misidentified.

When people want to shoot each other, regulating their access to weapons is just masking the problem. Instead, ask why they want to shoot each other, and what has lead them to be so profoundly disconnected from their basic compassion that they see this as an acceptable option.


I see a middle ground and I don't want it. That's not disturbing, it's my opinion. If you can convince me that I should want a middle ground I'll gladly take it.

5660154470_4994288a0c_b.jpg
 

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
26,020
83
48
it's just sad how tightly you cling to it. firearms discharged in the household more often result in the death of the owner and/or owners relatives than the Big Bad Wolf. very simple statistics.
This statistic is also meaningless. What percentage of gun bearing homes have gun related accidents in them? What percentage of perpetrators of gun violence legally own firearms? I personally have no problem with having some structured regulations around gun ownership but I haven't fooled myself into believing that will reduce gun violence by any reasonable percentage.
 

cryptophreak

unbalanced
Jul 2, 2011
1,011
62
48
You know who talks like that? NAZIS.

lol.

Really, though, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with your post. Maybe my position is wrong and maybe I am childish, but you've yet to even make a case for your side, so I can hardly be convinced.
 

Carbon

Altiloquent bloviator.
Mar 23, 2013
557
10
18
You know who talks like that? NAZIS.

lol.

Really, though, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with your post. Maybe my position is wrong and maybe I am childish, but you've yet to even make a case for your side, so I can hardly be convinced.

If you are truly interested in hearing all sides of this important debate, you might not sit around waiting for someone to paraphrase more credible authors who are easily found on the net and in print.

And congrats jack. Godwin's law. You win.
 

Kyllian

if (Driver == Bot.Pawn); bGTFO=True;
Aug 24, 2002
3,575
0
36
45.64.294
kyllian.deviantart.com
Kneecapping was not an option? Couldn't you make a case surrounding use of excessive force?
Let's punch you a few times, threaten your health/life, get you nice and charged with adrenaline, then see if you can hit a roughly 6 inch wide target that's moving.

Or you can aim for the target that's usually going to be bigger than a 50lb bag of grain
 

Jacks:Revenge

╠╣E╚╚O
Jun 18, 2006
10,065
218
63
somewhere; sometime?
of course I win.
he can't think of anything other than a false-equivalent Nazi joke.

there's no debate going on here.
he's admitted that he's not interested in rationality on this particular issue. he's admitted that he can recognize middle ground but doesn't care to address it.

he's got his foot down and his fingers in his ears.
Godwin has to be invoked.
 

Carbon

Altiloquent bloviator.
Mar 23, 2013
557
10
18
Yeah. You might want to tone down the rhetoric there jack. One shouldn't take much pride in victory through disqualification. ;)

Anyhow, I was half-kidding. Using this story to discuss gun law is a slippery place for a soap box.
 

Al

Reaper
Jun 21, 2005
6,032
221
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Philadelphia, PA
I just have to say... I know most people who visit BuF OT hate religion and politics threads, but I love them. I am a fan of the religion and politics threads.

Carry on.
 

-Jes-

Tastefully Barking
Jan 17, 2005
2,710
19
38
DM-HyperBlast
Haha, 'solving' American gun culture.

Your corporate overlords would like to remind you that it works perfectly for them. Keeps everyone except them scared, dumb and docile.

Well, scared and docile anyway.
 

cryptophreak

unbalanced
Jul 2, 2011
1,011
62
48
he can't think of anything other than a false-equivalent Nazi joke.

I don't have to. The only thing you've done besides jerk yourself off about how much more of an adult you are because your opinions are self-evidently superior is toss out a random statistic without even bothering to apply it. I could say that guns should be completely deregulated because the moon is made of green cheese, or because Obama is made of platypus’ vagina sweat, and still win by default, because you haven't made any argument at all, not even a false one.

he's admitted that he's not interested in rationality on this particular issue. he's admitted that he can recognize middle ground but doesn't care to address it.

I'm under no obligation to like something just because it's the "middle ground". To claim that having an opinion any distance from the midpoint is equivalent to giving up on rationality is stupid and frivolous.
 
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Nemephosis

Earning my Infrequent Flier miles
Aug 10, 2000
7,711
3
38
It is absolutely unreal that a month away from 2015 we are still turning this into a white vs black issue and not a "someone advanced on an officer in a hostile manner, officer responded as he was trained to" manner.