1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Two Factor Authentication is now available on BeyondUnreal Forums. To configure it, visit your Profile and look for the "Two Step Verification" option on the left side. We can send codes via email (may be slower) or you can set up any TOTP Authenticator app on your phone (Authy, Google Authenticator, etc) to deliver codes. It is highly recommended that you configure this to keep your account safe.

Night sights for the weapons->>> SHAKKEN, INF TEAM, README.NOW

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by CAVERNA2K, Feb 2, 2001.

  1. Col.Sanders

    Col.Sanders New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2000
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    0
    Shakken, it's you mod, but I find it kinda lame that because 2 countries are nervous pansies (about stuff that is less dangerous than most commercial cleaners) that it won't be included in the game. I respect your second comment however, that the technical implementation isn't worth the result.

    The fact still remains: in the US, tritium sights are a mail-order proposition, $100 a pair. I have spoken with my army friend to confirm he knows the difference between tritium night sights and white paint. He does, and sticks to his assertion that he qualified with about fifteen other guys on the M9 at night, all with luminous sights. So there are at least 15 night-sighted M9's around. :)

    I still maintain that it is rediculous to leave it out because 2 countries don't have them. We are trying to solve a gameplay problem (aiming the M9 at night) with a solution already adopted by real military forces (tritium sights). You know more about UT than me, but stick to the "more trouble than it's worth" argument, because the other one holds no water.
     
  2. ShakKen

    ShakKen Specops Spook

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2000
    Messages:
    3,608
    Likes Received:
    0
    Col.Sanders: Just because I've NAMED two countries doesn't mean there are ONLY two countries with such laws. Remember that.

    You're picking the wrong person to get technical with.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Wolf Being

    Wolf Being .

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2000
    Messages:
    488
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nah, let's not get into a pissing contest with a hard-to-determine outcome here. :)

    As I mentioned, I frankly didn't know that a country would equip it's armed forces with weapons without night sights because the commercial use of tritium is restricted, and I'm still not sure it's that way in Germany. It certainly isn't that way in Switzerland nor in the US. As I mentioned, I have never seen a SG551 without phosphorescent night sights, although I'll concede I've only seen the military variant.

    So what other countries besides malaysia have laws that forbid their armed forces to have tritium night sights on their weapons? I've been trying to find info on the situation in Germany but that seeems to be rather hard to come by... I did find a FAQ by the 'Bundesamt für Strahlenschutz' (German Department for Radiation Protection' that says that phosphorescent numerals on watches contain low doses of Tritium, but that this is not harmful. I deduct from this that sale of tritium in doses as used in phosphorescent material is not generally illegal in Germany, for what is okay for a civillian watch must be okay for a military assault rifle too, right? Besides, my mil spec p220 has non-phosphorescent night-sights, so I believe countries that don't alow tritium would at least allow this... but then I don't know, since my country allows it, and the only other one who's laws I know to some lesser extent (the US) does too.

    I don't think Col. Sanders was being offensive, ShakKen, he was just trying to keep the argument clean. I agree with him that the fact that some countries (one, two or whatever. who cares how many, as long as an approximately equal number do the opposite) is not a valid argument against including night-sights. By that standard, anything could be excluded, because there will always be a certain number of countries that will not have it.

    It is my personal oppinion that - at least for the ARs with convertible day/night-sights like the SG551 - it would be too much work. And, as Col Sanders pointed out, that is also an absolutely valid argument against including it, in the context.
     
  4. Liquid Night

    Liquid Night Argumentative type.

    Joined:
    May 18, 2000
    Messages:
    310
    Likes Received:
    0
    Shakken, I was replying to caverna2k in case you're in doubt. He was being pedantic, condescending and wrong at the same time. I can't resist that.

    "Consistency is the last resort of the unimaginative" - Wilde.
     
  5. profit

    profit New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 1999
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    0
    Banning Tritium

    would be a good idea, I'm sure there's something else that can be used for night-sights.
     
  6. ShakKen

    ShakKen Specops Spook

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2000
    Messages:
    3,608
    Likes Received:
    0
    Most if not all military issue handguns are now provided with non illuminating 3 dot box sights standard. Or in the case of Glock, 1 dot and white frame.

    Rifles like the SG550/551 are issued without tritium inserts( I have a VERY reliable source on this.).

    The ONLY military issue weapons I'm aware of with tritium sights standard are the Galil series and the Vector copies.

    I don't see what the big fuss is about. Since if it's dark enough for the tritium to illuminate, it's generally too dark to see the target. In which case high vis 3 dot box is really just as good.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. DEFkon

    DEFkon Shhh

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 1999
    Messages:
    1,934
    Likes Received:
    0
    not very familar with the UT color scheme but i though in Quake or HL there was a alpha channel, or something similar that could be applied to a texture map to make it un effected by the envirmental light.

    I think UT must have something similar because in typical UT you'll notice that on some of the weapons a digital counter of ammo is on the sides of weapons.. and this counter gives the illusion of giving off light..

    so instead of a red digital counter, a white dot would be a cakewalk i'd assume.

    boom
     
  8. Wolf Being

    Wolf Being .

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2000
    Messages:
    488
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, ShakKen whatever the inserts on the SG550/551 contain, is sure does glow in the dark.

    Mine (as are several hundred - if not thousand - others I have seen in my time) is military issue. The (open) 100m sight has two phosphorescent dots on each side and the front aperture has a night-sight post that can be raised that also has a phosphorescent dot on it. To engage your night-combat apertures you twist the diopter to the 'open' 100m position and raise the front post and line up the three phosphorescent dots.

    Whoever your source is, he must be confusing it with some daytime-only civillian variant (no full-auto either on that one, I assume), because my source is 5.56mm, folding stock, dark green and carries a 40mm grenade launcher or a LASER sighting device for use with NVGs if I so desire and resides in my gun rack when I'm not running around the woods with it. :D I have not fired dozens of ARs in my time, but trust me on the SG550. I have been using it in the military since it was first issued here in 1996. Maybe they didn't mount any on the SG551 SWAT law-enforcement variant, highly possible, but this isn't a law enforcement mod, right? ;)

    The point with phosphorescent sights is that sometimes your target will be better illuminated than you will be (because, say, you are hiding in ambush). Unless your sights phosphoresce, you will not be able to engage the target, because while it will be perfectly visible, your sights will not. You don't want it to illuminate, but the phosphorescing make it stick out a little better. You don't even register it phosphoresces, but white dots would be dark grey while the phosphorescent sights appear white. I've used them effectively on countless night raid and ambush excercises where the regular sights would have required I expose myself much more to engage the target than as it was. Besides, remember that after the first salvo your eye(s) will be somewhat blinded by the muzzle flash, so phosphorescent sights will help you pic up your sights faster than the enemy after that. Better to remember to close one eye though anyway, hehehe. All this to say that I have no doubts whatsoever about the usefulness of phosphorescent sights, we actually did a late-dusk MOUT meeting engagement MILES-excercise one time with one team using the night-sights and the other not (the instructor wanted to make a point). Needless to say they got creamed, because they couldn't see enough why the others could, hehehe (and the point was taken).

    If apparently the US military issue Beretta has them too, why not just put them on those weapons that have them? I personally don't really care too much (I would rather see more realistic aiming, hehe), but it would certainly be realistic and the fact that some armed forces don't have them doesn't change the fact that some others do... For example, I have no idea what other armed forces besides the Swiss Military use the SG550 as their standard assault rifle (it certainly costs enough to make this an expensive choice...), but if indeed they are the only ones and their variant has phosphorescent sights they should be in the game. Unless, of course, it's too much work - as I have said numerous times, that argument still stands in any case.
     
  9. ShakKen

    ShakKen Specops Spook

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2000
    Messages:
    3,608
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tell that to my Swiss cousin :rolleyes: They do not glow in the dark without additional tritium inserts that's why the sights are sharply concave.

    Same on the old SG540s which I've had a go with myself.

    We we're issued box stock Beretta model 92s and with the low vis exercises we've done I GARAUNTEE they don't glow in the dark.

    As for night engagements, I've been through exercises myself and close quarters according to the British FIBUA doctrines. I don't know about the theoretical advantages of night sights, but since motar launched flares turn night into day that's going to stay theoretical.

    And you'd have to be fighting a pretty stupid enemy for him to have sillouetted himself in the fashion you described.

    Also, with the 6 vent muzzle cages on out M16A1s. Muzzle flash was pretty much not an issue even with our pupils fully dialated.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. KOFFEYKID

    KOFFEYKID Suck It!! Suck It!!

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2000
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    One way to fix is

    Wy don't you guys make night vission goggles. But i'm nit sure how to use a gun like that. do you like have to put the sights at the end of the scope or what. if you looked through the scope and fire youd probrably dummy slap your self. :eek: That is the only way. Plus it'd be friggin cool to locate your enemies whith them. But i can't wait for 2.85 so it'll just have to wait as for people that run into these problems you should get a flash light or a search light.

    By the time you notice me it will be all over.

    [This message was edited by KOFFEYKID on Feb 11, 2001 at 09:41.]
     
  11. Wolf Being

    Wolf Being .

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2000
    Messages:
    488
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't get it ShakKen, all I said was that they glow in the dark. Of course they don't glow without inserts, fact is the Swiss Army *has* phosphorescent inserts on the SG550. That was my point.

    As for the rest, all I can do is speak from my personal experience. I didn't describe a meeting engagement where the enemy is better illuminated than you would be, I described an ambush situation. There, by definition, you try to catch the enemy unawares and in sub-optimal conditions. Like on a road or in urban surroundings.

    But if you're implementing illum flares and 6cm mortars for battelfield illumination, of course that's even better. ;)
     
  12. Col.Sanders

    Col.Sanders New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2000
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    0
    ShaKken, you are not the only person on the board with real firearms experience.

    1) Glock sells guns in the US with factory-equipped nightsights. So does SIG-Sauer and Beretta. Almost always they are Trijicons, sometimes Meprolights. It's an option. And even if they are illegal in 100 countries, availability does not mean they are useless.

    2) The MP5 doesn't come from the factory with an Aimpoint, nor the M16 with an ACOG. So what a gun leaves the factory with is a moot point, since the MOD (rightly so) adds aftermarket equipment to the guns to make them better.

    3) Lighting is not always even. Sometimes the target is fully illuminated, but the shooter, being tactically wise, is not in the light. Neither is the gun. No light, no sights. But when the sights glow, we're back in the game.

    4) Tritium sights are great on handguns because there is no way to fit a Image-intensification scope onto a pistol and fit it in a holster. Plus Trijicons are $100, whereas good NV is $1000.

    5) There is more to guns than what the military does with them. The whole world of civilian and police shooting, when we are not talking about SWAT, doesn't have access to the guns and accessories of the military. No mortars, no tracers, no full-auto, no silencers. Just one man, a pistol, 2 clips and a flashlight. Sometimes a badge.

    I respect that the mod belongs to the INF team, not me. I also respect your knowledge and experiences in the military. If you want to explain why Tritiums aren't in the mod, fine.

    But understand that there is more to guns and tactics than what you or any one man can know. In my experience and those of about a hundred people around me, every gun needs Trijicons on them, unless its a collectors piece.

    They are legal here, and they are great.
     
  13. Lord_Bunker

    Lord_Bunker New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2000
    Messages:
    1,811
    Likes Received:
    0
  14. ShakKen

    ShakKen Specops Spook

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2000
    Messages:
    3,608
    Likes Received:
    0
    Col.Sanders: I never said that, I never implied that, and I certainly will not have you put words into my mouth.

    1) Glock PRODUCES handguns with factory standard dot and frame sights. That's military spec. And this mod is all about mil-spec. How soon you forget.

    2) Trijicon scopes and even Aimpoints are not uncommonly used by military forces worldwide. Tritium filled handgun sights are another question. No company producing a handgun with illuminating sights has a hope in hell of getting the lower bid for a service pistol. Tritium raises the price THAT much. Military polititians might have a care to fork out the dough to but a rifle with tritium sights because it's a primary weapon.

    3) Be that as it may, see post no.2. And I restate that the victim is question is not too 'bright'.

    4) Hmm, ladeeda. Need I say more? BTW, you can get Russian surplus NVGs for around 300USD. That was last year.

    5) *coughcough*

    Normally I'd agree. It's so happens that I found out about this law ordering a set of Meprolight Tru-Dots when I had a Glock. Needless to say they never made it, and I got quite an impolite letter from customs on the matter. Til then, modifications were a normality for me. Previously I had an Auto Ordnance 1911 with Pachmeyer grip panels, full dehorning, trigger job, reliability job, Brown tactical thumb safety and Millet sights.

    After the incident, I decided my preferance would be box stock guns. Because no matter where in the world I go, I can comparatively easily get my hand on a box-stock weapon. I'd know exactly how to use it, what it's capable of, and I don't need to run down to the GS and get him to stick some extra paraphanelia on it because "That is how my old gun was and I'm used to shooting it that way.".

    I'm experianced enough with firearms to know that what you know best, you use best.

    Not to say that I'm imposing my experiance on you, but this is also how most militaries operate. You use what you are issued and get good with it how they are. What you can get, you do. What you can't get, you don't. It's as simple as that.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Wolf Being

    Wolf Being .

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2000
    Messages:
    488
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, my box-stock SIG still has inserts, hehehe

    I think it would be useful. If you guys don't feel like doing it, fine, but the fact that Malaysia has some nutty laws on tritium shouldn't be the reason...
     
  16. Col.Sanders

    Col.Sanders New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2000
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    0
    I had a post, but I deleted it.

    Shakken, rather than continue the argument here, I think that we have strayed from the topic, because we aren't quite clear on each other's positions. We're just disagreeing on points, not supporting two distinct positions. I extend my hand in a truce, and offer two possibilities.

    1) We open a new topic, in which we each state what position we are taking, and a few relevant points, and argue there.

    2) We stop here and agree we disagree.

    I kinda like #1, but I leave the choice to you.
    I don't think we are going to get anywhere the way we are arguing now.

    [This message was edited by Col.Sanders on Feb 20, 2001 at 17:03.]
     
  17. ShakKen

    ShakKen Specops Spook

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2000
    Messages:
    3,608
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can't dictate what you do of course. I myself am weary of this debate so I'd have to go for option #2.

    Should you wish to continue this though, I'll be there ;)

    [​IMG]
     

Share This Page