New Orleans

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Rostam

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May 1, 2001
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To my surprise, still no topic about it here.

Here is a low quality movie: http://sabine.vslcatena.nl/Hannity-Colmes-Smith-Rivera-freak-in-NO.wmv

Basically, it is FOX (!!) reporters crying over what is happening to the people. It's not acting either, for a change.

Seriously, this thing is really making me angry. Even Cuba offered help (more than once too) but instead the US seems to have decided to do what they do best: screw people over. I try not to get angry, since there is no good in it. But how else can one feel when in one week thousands of people die (world wide: Iraq, India etc) and NOBODY seems to help.
 

(SDS)benmcl

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May 13, 2002
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Yeah I saw a couple of reporters pretty well loose it. Not talking about little wusses either. Some of them been in war zones. It was very odd when a helicopter reporter was trying to video and report while helping his pilot avoid other aircraft and hazards such as powerlines while at the same time looking for people hold up and dropping bottle water to them.

Watching Anderson Cooper, who I always had a lot of respect for trying to help people tell there story yet end up getting involved and having a very difficult time of it. (Justy to note on Anderson he has had the same reaction in other diaster zones, and troubled areas around the world so it is not because they are Americans.)

Later that day during an interview with a politician a lot of anger came up as he tore a strip of I believe it was a senator.

What did me in is that the private hospital on I believe it was Thursday had the remaining staff evacuated when across the street in plan view patients at the public hospital waited to be taken out.

Yesterday I learned part of the timeline. It was reported from the hurricance watch centre Friday 5PM eastern that it would be a cat 4 possibly 5 and that Orleans was in the track. It was estimated that if everything went perfectly it would take 55 to 72 hours to move evacuate the city. During regular diaster planning when the topic of moving out the poor, which comprised of I believe 30% of the population, people "just shook their heads". They had no clue how to move them out.

Although everyone knew for years that this could happen, some argued that it would, everytime local and state governments approached the federal governament to improve the levie system they were turned down.

Estimated cost $14 billion.
 

Rostam

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May 1, 2001
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Money be damned.

Thing I don't understand is how the hell the national garde can sit there and do nothing. When I heard they were there I figured they'd be helping, maybe put up something against the water so they can start pumping it away. Rather I heard they were allowed to shoot and kill people for plundering. I mean what the hell, have your priorities straight. Everything there is so wrong.
 

The_Pikeman

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Nov 20, 2001
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What can you say they were warned numerus times about this happening but I guess flood defenses and levve repairs are not a good use of peoples taxes. Thing is these people are poor so they dont matter as much as the rich.
-How.
 

(SDS)benmcl

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Actually they were not authorized to shoot to kill. No one who could actually give that order gave it and was not considered by people of authority. There were some clueless politicians mouthing off.

The biggest problem was there was a complete break down in leadership from the top down. No orders, conficting orders etc. It wasn't until the general hit the ground thatthings begain to happen.

I don't believe the national guard is fixing the levies, regular army is handling that if I read correctly. Also the breaks are huge so it is not something that is going to happen over night.
 

NTKB

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Aug 25, 2001
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Eerily, I just saw a program on TV a week prior to the disaster that was speaking specifically of that area, and how it was extremely flood prone and that they were just waiting for the "big one" to hit the area... One week later, boom. :(
 

Rostam

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May 1, 2001
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Putting enough sandbags in the dykes to stop the water is going to take atleast a month of constant work. However, they do have the manpower to isolate smaller areas from the water.

Other than the radio I don't have a source for the shoot to kill thing I heard about, so you are probably right. Still, they seem to be more concerned about the lootings than about food and water.
 

cracwhore

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Oct 3, 2003
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I think what we're seeing here is just the failure of the federal government. Things aren't organized to function - it's a bureaucracy.

We got around that after 9/11 by granting the government unprecedented powers - which gave us things like the Patriot Act...

Shit happened lickity-split after that. I'm surprised it hasn't been proposed that we grant the federal government more 'big brother' powers to solve this problem.

You just have to honestly wonder - why the fuck aren't there 900,000 busses there? Why aren't there shool busses, charter busses? There are news vans driving in every day - and you're telling me you can't get some busses in there to evacuate everybody?

My guess is - the government looks at it like this:

Those people are poor and desperate. They don't have homes now. If they load them onto busses, and take them to neighboring towns - where will that get them?

Basically, they're just looking for giant buildings to stuff these people into. Unleashing all of those people onto a fresh town - with no shelter, is kind of useless. Unless they have some sort of shelter to stay at...

But still - you'd think they'd let you leave - if you wished...

As for the national guard? It's martial law. That's just how it works. They wait for somebody to just snap - and when they snap - they are put down.

The soldiers are probably going to be over-worked and stressed. I wouldn't be surprised if a riot starts and people are shot because of the tension...

They're supposed to be there to 'secure the perimeter for the transports', and to help the small police force - which I can understand. And stopping crime - that's fine (even though the companies that own those products in the retail stores - will simply send out an order to have those products destroyed. It's cheaper to destroy them, than it is to risk having to honor a warranty). But you have to wonder - where are those transports going? Why isn't there food?

Did they drive there from the fort and park to unload, only to realize - greedy little Tommy O'Halloran had stowed away in the back, and had eaten everybody's lunches on the drive over?


'Tom-my! You ate all the food!' *studio laugh track*


Are they busy setting up a stunning picnic, down the road? It's a big surprise party? Is Oprah going to show up and give everybody a free car? Are they just buying time for the party clown that promised to donate balloon animals to the kids? Did they order the wrong table cloth?

Were the 'convoys' just part of a cruel joke? Did Ashton Kutcher just 'punk' New Orleans?
 
Apr 21, 2003
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They were also many critics about the 9/11 story, that the support was bad. It is everywhere the case. Russians couldn't lift a ship few meters under water. Austrians couldn't resque some dudes trapped in the tunnels.

Our technology is cheap, we can do nothing to save us from the earth.

They will be a time where a floating ship will be able to build a force field around tunnel trapped people and lift all the stones with a gravity tool. Which will last few minutes in total.
But this will happen in the future.
 

(SDS)benmcl

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Yes it is martial law but they are not going to shoot anybody for looting. Start pointing guns or something stupid like that then yeah.

Rostam in an interview with the Mayor of New Orleans he was just briefed on a new plan for the levies system repair. Have no ideas of the details but they are talking couple of weeks. I heard the repairs are going well. Also they plan to make some breaks to allow water to drain the otherway.

The mayors big problem, amoung many, is that he needs to get what is left of his police force and fire departments out of the city and get medical and psychological help. Probalem is that he has run into red tape from FEMA and he has no where to send them. Communications from his headquarters has been fixed. Also apprently he has a direct line to the White House. He needs to use because there have been some suicides already in the police and fire departments.
 

DEFkon

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I think that the problem simply is that nobody knows what to do. The effort to help seems to be there, i mean it's the first time in US history that Emergency disaster aid & funding was requested, and granted before the actual disaster happend. But the devistation is beyond that of a war zone. There is no power anywhere, no reliable ability to communicate on a scale larger than word of mouth to the survivors. The health concerns are so massive that i wouldn't find a quarentine to be surprising. The floodwater is so polluted with gasoline from trashed cars, gas-stations, the sewage system, the dead, ect that i'm not even sure what should be done with the water even if i was given god like powers to move it at a whim. It's just a mess, and i don't see it as something that'll likely improve over the course of the week. My biggest fear would be that the survivors get sick, and then spread a plauge into the surrounding areas as they evacuate. This is probably why people are only being evcauated in a controled manner, rather than simply allowed to "walk out". :(
 

Rostam

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May 1, 2001
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But the devistation is beyond that of a war zone. There is no power anywhere, no reliable ability to communicate on a scale larger than word of mouth to the survivors.
Actually, it is pretty damned similar to a war zone. The way wars are fought these days, anyway.

DEFkon, that isn't entirely like that. There is a good chance there could have been busses to drive people away, like crac mentioned. That would minimize diseases. At the very least, there can be busses driving away the corpses, also helping against diseases. In any case I believe those people can be helped a million times better if they wouldn't be where they are now. Putting them in cities close by would spread out the problem as well as make it easier to supply food and water.

As for cops, I heard that about 60% quit. Kudos to those still trying to make a difference, but stopping looters isn't something I would do. I heard this one cop say "I don't encourage it, but do what you have to do to survive" and that's exactly how I stand in this. I wouldn't be sitting still if I would be there, and I wouldn't exactly appreciate it when a cop tells me to 'drop it' after I finally find something useful.
 

Harrm

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Oct 21, 2001
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I think we're finally getting the situation of most black communities shoved right up in our faces. I especially like how happy the powers-that-be are over all of this. The entire situation has devolved into a bunch of white people shaking hands and congradulating themselves over a bunch of dead black people.

"The black people, the uh, less well off as slow as possible, I mean this is, the Red Cross is doing everything they can, w-we already realize, a lot of the people that could help - are - at war - right now, fighting another way, and they-they-they've given them permission to go down and shoot us!"

"George Bush doesn't care about black people."

--Kanye West, NBC Hurricane relief video

From what I've heard the NAACP either has brought, or will bring a suit against the US government. Good for them, although I dont say it'll mean a damn thing, since they're going to lose no matter what.

--Harrm

PS- My best hopes for the people in New Orleans. If I had any money to give, I'd give it all.
 
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5eleven

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Mar 23, 2003
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Buses? You want buses? Here are the goddamned buses: Under water in New Orleans.

Here's my little take on things:

As far as I am concerned, the failure rests primarily on the government of the City of New Orleans and secondarily on the government of the State of Louisiana. I don't care what anyone says, the federal response to disaster is always slow and is not meant to be the primary responders to any disaster.

New Orleans knew that their city was below sea level. They border the ocean, the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain. They knew ahead of time the potential problems of a hurricane strike, and the likelihood of levy breaks. The State of Louisiana also knew these problems. They held tabletop emergency exercises and were made painfully aware of the problems that could occur. But apparently nothing was done in preparation for such an eventuality.

You don't order a mandatory evacuation and then not provide adequate transportation for the poor and infirmed. Knowing that a hurricane is coming and that you might need transportation, you don't leave buses parked in a damned lot. You stage them throughout the city and evacuate accordingly. You don't use a "last resort" evacuation center without making plans to feed, shelter, or care for the evacuees.

Yes, opening up the highway as a route of egress is great, for those that can afford it, or even have cars.

Sorry, the federal response is not designed to provide initial rescue and recovery operations. In addition, people comparing this tragedy to NYC and 9/11 need to take a step back. Supplies, equipment, personnel and the like could be brought directly to the disaster site. The entire city of New York was not off the power grid. Police, fire, all emergency services throughout the rest of the city could still respond and provide aid. This, is completely different.

I am completely disappointed and unimpressed with the response of the NOPD as well. Notorious throughout the country as one of the most corrupt police agencies, images of officers caught looting a WalMart by Martin Savidge from MSNBC do nothing to help their cause. Their administration as well, was ill-prepared for this disaster. Sickening.

Even more sickening is the Mayor of New Orleans, the bigmouth critic of the Federal Government. According to news reports, he ordered chartered buses to take stranded tourists in the Hyatt across from his headquarters, to the Superdome evacuation site, then ordered that they be placed in the front of the line for evacuation out of the city. Ahead of poor New Orleans residents, some that had waited for five to six days for evacuation, and ahead of hundreds stranded on a section of Highway 10 for days. It cracks me up to see him complaining about the federal government not being quick enough to respond and how his police officers held the city together for two days. CYA, as a result of piss-poor planning. It's always easier to blame up, ain't it?

EDIT: One other thing regarding looters. Looting started early on in this situation. Don't tell me that people kicking in doors of electronics stores the night the flooding started "needed something useful" If you are going to stop looting, you do it immediately, get a handle on it, and restore order. At the point that a disaster goes into multiple days, and stranded people need to survive, I have no problem with taking food stuffs, emergency supplies, legitimate medication and survival equipment. Pickup truck loads of televisions, name brand tennis shoes, and other assorted electronics, is not for personal or familial survival, and I doubt very seriously that these groups are part of a distribution effort.
 

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Rostam

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May 1, 2001
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Buses? You want buses? Here are the goddamned buses: Under water in New Orleans.
... erm, the water is only like 4 meters high. There are plenty of highways that are still dry.

But yeah I agree, this could have easily be prevented. There have been several warnings, other than the ones you posted I also heard that Holland warned about the condition of the dykes. But now that the disaster has hit, not much is being done. I can't help but think that if fat white people would be the ones stranded that help would arrive so much sooner.
 

5eleven

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Rostam said:
... erm, the water is only like 4 meters high. There are plenty of highways that are still dry.
You're missing the point. If you know you will need them, you preposition at least some on higher ground, with a predetermined route of egress. 4m high or not, if you wait until the flooding starts and don't move them, you can't get them anywhere. My police department is on the banks of a river. A river that has flooded more than once, the last time, although minor was last year. In 1987 we flooded and lost several vehicles because we left them to sit in the lot. Now, we have a plan. At the first hint of rising water, all of our vehicles are moved to higher ground, evenly divided between the two halves of the city. If the river doesn't crest, we move them back. Simple.
Rostam said:
But now that the disaster has hit, not much is being done
Which disaster? The hurricane, the flooding, or the additional flooding caused by the levy breaks? And as far as not much being done, I strongly, strongly disagree. An extra effort is required in this instance because the tragedy has been compounded by the deficiencies and inadequacies of the city and state governments. They didn't take care of their people.
Just like the levies. Everyone is complaining about the federal government and laughing at the Army Corps of Engineers trying to fix what is damn near unfixable. I suppose the City of New Orleans or the State of Lousiana didn't recognize deficiencies in their system? They didn't address the problem. The Corps of Engineers is trying their best to fix the impossible after it's broken. Put the blame where it belongs.
Rostam said:
I can't help but think that if fat white people would be the ones stranded that help would arrive so much sooner.
You can think whatever you want. Sorry, race doesn't have shit to do with it. I didn't even know that NO was 68% African American until yesterday, and frankly, I don't care.
Today 01:19 PM
 

Rostam

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May 1, 2001
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Put the blame where it belongs.
Who am I blaming again? No, I'm saying not much is done. Looks like finally they are going to evacuate those people. Something that should have been done already. I don't care who was responcible, everybody with the power to do so should have helped.

You're missing the point. If you know you will need them, you preposition at least some on higher ground
We're talking about different situations. You're talking about the busses in New Orleans that could have been saved, I'm talking about transportation from nearby cities.

Sorry, race doesn't have **** to do with it.
Indeed, if it would be poor and hard working white people, the situation would be the same. But fat white people are a different story.