Need for bright skins?

[Sir_Brizz]

Brightskins are important because this game is NOT about taking cover or hiding and not being seen.

Why shouldn't it be? "Hiding" in the shadows doesn't automatically mean "invisible". It just means less visible than standing in a direct ray of sunlight. Why shouldn't the game have realism like that? The reason is that it introduces more variables -- variables that so-called "pro" players don't want or like.

And what is this 'strategy' that is missing? Err there is enough strategy in how to frag using multiple weapons, knowing where your opponent is, timing, and a bunch of other stuff that's painfully obvious when you play 1v1.

However, everything besides the core fragging skill suddenly disappears when you go to another team based gametype not called Deathmatch. There is a difference between pointing and clicking, and actually using different things to your advantage. Take for example CTF-Maul. How much cooler would that map be if the right path was a high ridge that was simple to see people on but provided natural cover, versus the left path which was a shadowy ravine with virtually no cover but the shadows themselves? With natural lighting something like that would be possible, while NEVER making models invisible, just changing the level of visibility they are at.

Who came up with the rule that futuristic sci-fi = no environmental strategy??

 

[briach]

Get rid of crappy skins like matrix etc.

Have a builtin feature that helps you adjust your gamma and contrast to correct values, this will make it easier for newcomers to jump in.

Make it so the theshold of increasing gamma yielding an advantage is lower. So people can't max out gamma to the point of killing their retinas to get an advantage.

There has to be less benefit given to players that have filters or high contrast; gamma settings. Ofcourse there should be benefits for adjusting video settings to the correct values, but there shouldn't be an uncapped increase in visibility for every higher value of gamma. I mean literally, the point where raising gamma is no longer an advantage, is when your eyes are pouring out of your skull.

 

[arew]

Gah.. brightskins... the same people that do gamma-cranking, bunny-jumping, dolphin-diving, ladder-shooting, pixel-nading, fog-cheating, stats-padding and every other balance-destroying exploit there is.
Why doesn't any of these so called "pro" players ever want to play the game the way it was meant to be?

 

[ShakeZula]

because it's impossible to see the skins

you should read the thread :tup:

 

[-AEnubis-]

it's not impossible, just difficult.

People don't wanna have to focus on certain skills, so they can only have to worry about other skills.

 

[Kharnellius]

Too much filth to wade through, but I think that the view of being able to see people reasonably well isn't well justified. UT is seriously lacking one thing that every other FPS out there has a measure of, and that something is strategy. You can't have glowstick brightskins and at the same time lambaste the game for not being as popular as other similar games. OF COURSE IT'S NOT, there is no strategy involved besides point-click, or shield-run in EVERY GAME. That's not fun and what makes it even worse is it's NOT UT. UT99 was partly successful because of the variety of ways in which it could be played and enjoyed. It seems the only way you can enjoy UT2004 is if you are l337 enough to click on a neon light 40 clicks away.

I'm not for glowsticks....need to read...

...
Im not really for artificially bright skins per se...but I dont see why they shouldn't be as visible as they were in UT99, at least. The tournament encourages in your face combat and they would want their fans to be able to keep track of the action. So I think it would make sense that the armor and jumpsuits, etc would be somewhat bright....kind of like seeing the uniforms a sports team wears or the jumpsuit NASCAR drivers wear.
...

In a nutshell, I just want lighting that makes it reasonably possible to see your opponent from a medium distance away. I do NOT want glowsticks however.

 

[ShakeZula]

I wouldn't go as far as Brizz and encourage strategic lighting, that's a bit too deep for me. I just hate brightskins because they look awful, no other reason. If (hypothetically, because it's impossible) skins could be made that produced the exact same visibility as UTComp brightskins but without looking awful, that would be fine, but I'd also be okay with UT2004 default skins (minus Matrix). It really doesn't bother me so long as it's the same for everybody (see: "minus Matrix"), they're not _too_ dark (imo UT2004 defaults are mostly fine) and they look cool.

 

[Flak]

Can't stand bright skins and I never could, but then again I've never had a problem seeing anyone in game. I hope we never see them again and EPIC goes back to force modeling they way it was in UT99, you see exactly the skin the person is wearing, as long as it's not a custom skin. Hopefully they would be close enough in size/shape/color that it won't be a problem. It wasn't in UT.

I think people have become so spoiled with neon skins and the tink tink sound that nothing will make them happy though.

 

[os][ris]

For the record I do NOT like bright skins, i'd much prefer not to use them because i like to actually see skins and not glowing sticks in a game. But if it comes down to not being able to see a skin i.e. Matrix thats standing RIGHT in front of me in visible light or using bright skins, i'm going to use bright skins. Since an opposite opinion is considered filth, Sir Bizz doesn't read or just doesn't get the point. The point is that some skins are harder if not impossible to see in many situations and it has nothing to do with intentional enviromental lighting.

 

[ShakeZula]

I think people have become so spoiled with neon skins and the tink tink sound that nothing will make them happy though.

Yeah, unfortunately that's true.

 

[briach]

Here is what it comes down to. People that don't like brightskins don't understand why they are there in the first place.

Go to any non bskin server, and the only model you'll be seeing is matrix, mixed with gorge(forcing model). Adjusting gamma isn't an exploit, it's a part of the game, but in ut2k4 it's overemphasized. Just don't be foolish enough to think everyone is playing on an equal playing field without brightskins. Without brightskins, people with larger resolution, better fps, superior monitors and video settings have a massive advantage over other players. With brightskins, video settings and playermodel have much less of an effect on the game. Players on 600X400 aren't at a disadvantage against players with larger resolution. Competitive gaming is all about LAN and an equal playing field. This is why such mutators are in place, so competitive players don't have to waste a bunch of money on buying a mega computer or superfast connection to get good at the game for LAN, and so that the players that are the best online, are also the best on LAN. Competitive players know that the games that really count are on LAN, and everything else is for practice or fun. Playing on an unequal playing field isn't fun nor is it good for practice.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

But if it comes down to not being able to see a skin i.e. Matrix thats standing RIGHT in front of me in visible light or using bright skins, i'm going to use bright skins.

Good job over exaggerating there. Matrix is just fine in terms of visibility at close range. It's at mid-range where it starts to become more questionable, unlike other skins. I've already agreed many times in the past that certain models in 2k4 are not well lit, necessitating Brightskins, but NOT necessitating GLOWSTICKS.

Since an opposite opinion is considered filth, Sir Bizz doesn't read or just doesn't get the point. The point is that some skins are harder if not impossible to see in many situations and it has nothing to do with intentional enviromental lighting.

I don't read or get your point because I said "too much filth"? You don't even know that I was referring to your post or that I literally meant filth. Need a ladder to get off that horse?

In addition to that, there is intentional environmental lighting in many maps which is the only reason other certain models become harder to see. If you play on servers with Epic Brighter Skins, you can see that ALL of the models could have been lit properly without requiring neon lights to "fix" the problems. Brightskins exist because "pro"s WANT them, not because they are GOOD.

I'm not for glowsticks....need to read...

I'm aware of that. I was responding to more posts than yours (did I even respond to yours??).

 

[nuttella]

Actually, Matrix and Abaddon are pretty bad even with Brighter Epic. This is why I have disabled them entirely by commenting them out of the .upl, though it gets me kicked from most AntiTCC servers.

And it's not just that some skins are too dark, but some skins are also relatively too bright, such as some Egyptians and Widowmaker. It's just inconsistent and looks bad. In the "real" tournament, you would imagine everyone would wear camoflage to be as difficult to see as possible. Or else the organizers would outfit everyone with jerseys for easy location and identification, sort of like in our real virtual competitions. I don't care which way they go, but one or the other, please.

There should also be more options for forcing models than simply force or don't. You should be able to force models for certain characters you don't like, and you should be able to force any retail model. It shouldn't even matter that you use the model you force, if the models are uniformly visible.

 

[os][ris]

Good job over exaggerating there. Matrix is just fine in terms of visibility at close range. It's at mid-range where it starts to become more questionable, unlike other skins. I've already agreed many times in the past that certain models in 2k4 are not well lit, necessitating Brightskins, but NOT necessitating GLOWSTICKS.

I don't read or get your point because I said "too much filth"? You don't even know that I was referring to your post or that I literally meant filth. Need a ladder to get off that horse?

In addition to that, there is intentional environmental lighting in many maps which is the only reason other certain models become harder to see. If you play on servers with Epic Brighter Skins, you can see that ALL of the models could have been lit properly without requiring neon lights to "fix" the problems. Brightskins exist because "pro"s WANT them, not because they are GOOD.

I'm aware of that. I was responding to more posts than yours (did I even respond to yours??).

I played in a server last night without Utcomp brightskins and usedEpic Bright Skins, and force model was off on Rankin. I was standing near the flak facing the hallway to the amp, i would say i was closer to the hallway then to the flak. Someone using the Matrix skin (i think) was standing RIGHT there in that hallway and I could not see him. When I say "couldnt' see him" I mean that I could not make out which direction he was moving or even what weapon he had in his hand. To me the Epic "fix" did not rectify the problem hence the need for glowsticks. If someone would come up with a way to change the skins so that they are more visible without having them glowing, i would be more then happy to use them. We will have to agree to disagree i suppose..


Environmental lighting is fine IF it's intentional. However I do not think it was Epic's intention to have some skins visable and some you can hardly see. And thats NOT an exaggeration some of these skins are so bad they are damn near invisible and many people, including non pro's :| will attest to that. And it's not like these characters are simply running, addingn triple jumps, and half pike twists into the game only makes it worse..

 

[nuttella]

I think the glowsticks have blinded you.

 

[DeathBooger]

Well Matrix isn't in UT2007 so problem solved.

 

[Flak]

Go to any non bskin server, and the only model you'll be seeing is matrix, mixed with gorge(forcing model).

This is not true at all for me. I play on Fat Jimmy's VCTF server and on a few of the sniper servers. I rarely see matrix or abbadon (I wouldn't mind though, I dont have trouble seeing them) People use all of the skins, and while there are more gorges than anything else, its still only a small percentage. I'll take some end of game screenies today so you can see what I mean.

 

[Sijik]

What ungodly settings are required to not see someone standing directly in front of you, 320x240 on a 12 inch moniter? I'd like to try and actually experience this myself so I can know what you folks getting at, but, I have to wonder, if gaming is important enough to you that you're debating about it on a forum, why aren't you saving up for the proper hardwae so you can run it right?
Regardless, it's a moot point anyway. Brightskins will be made, whether they're needed or not, and as soon as one person ffires them up, everyone will *have* to use them, too, to stay even...
Feh, screw online play. (for me, anyway, it can stay around, I'll just never use it)

 

[Continuum]

Not seeing what weapon they have has nothing to do with what model / skin is being used.

 

[Bullet10k]

Some of you arguing against brightskins are missing the point. Bskins make you faster to REACT, and trace your opponent. It's not just visible or not, it's how visible they are, and how fast you can react.

Let me put it this way: When your opponent is invisible (the ghostly white shimmer effect is still there), what makes it so hard to trace the player? Ofcourse they're visible, you can see their white shimmers, but what makes it so hard to shoot at the player as opposed to if their not invisible? Imagine what would happen if everyone was invisible as normal, we could still see the shimmers, but we won't react, trace, or shoot as good as if they were normal. Think about it...

It's the same effect when you use normal skins compared to brightskins, perhaps to a less of an extent. Brightskins are I think, MAXIMUM visibility, if they were any brighter, it wouldn't make any difference to your reaction time or tracing skill anyway. When something is more vivid, you tend to notice it much more and even faster and react faster than if it weren't vivid.

And the thing about "it makes things easier to learn" or "it's so people don't have to learn it" is dumb, because like I said, the purpose of bskins is totally different, it's to balance the playing field, and make you react as fast as you can. Nothing to "learn" about seeing skins because even if you learned to see players, you'd still react, and trace players if you used bskins.