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[Mutator] It's coming...

Discussion in 'Infiltration Development' started by UN17, May 20, 2004.

  1. UN17

    UN17 Taijutsu Specialist

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    See teaser image first!

    The actual in-game image isn't digitally manipulated. Using what I've learned last week from the people here and from looking at the core files, I've made a working .50AE Desert Eagle. It is a seven shot weapon with higher recoil and a heavier grain bullet than it's counter part. Don't worry, it was just another learning project. No one wants another Hollywood movie gun in the armory, including myself. Thought the poster would be fun though, along the lines of a cheap summer blockbuster ad.
     

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    Last edited: May 20, 2004
  2. -Freshmeat

    -Freshmeat Eternally noob

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    Nice work, fun presentation. I agree with you on keeping it offline, but personally I would love to have the mutator for when I hunt TWTZombies.

    -Freshmeat
     
  3. Dr_Strangelove

    Dr_Strangelove http://www.jeremycox.com

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    why not make it gold plated? :D
     
  4. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    What did you up the damage and lower the penetration to?

    Edit: yurch knows more about weapon shtuff then me...

    Edit2: Wait, if that was the case, then why do the .40s&w, .357, and .45acp penetrate more than the 9mm in game?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2004
  5. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    Honestly I would think it has less penetration. It's a very rounded and wide projectile going at a low velocity.
     
  6. ecale3

    ecale3 Sniper - May be harmful to your health.

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    I believe Bushwack said the penetration potential of the .50 AE is pretty pathetic.
     
  7. Derelan

    Derelan Tracer Bullet

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    While we're at it, why not add a Smith&Wesson M27 Magnum? :D

    I would love to see an attempt at the reload animations for a break-action revolver.
     
  8. MP_Duke

    MP_Duke Banned

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    Good, now NT can stop bugging me about it :p
     
  9. Conglomera

    Conglomera Proud Toilet Cleaner

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    According to Poncelet algorithm, a non-expanding .50 bullet with a nominal mass of 21.125 gramms, impacting at 427 m/s on a plain-brick wall, should travel for 8.6 cm.
    A non-expanding .357 bullet, weighting 10.27 gramms, impacting at 377 m/s travels for 7.46 cm.

    Poncelet Penetration Calculator
    Not sure if it works on earlier i.explore versions.
     
  10. ecale3

    ecale3 Sniper - May be harmful to your health.

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    Would the .50AE round be faster than the .357? And does that algorithm or whatever take body armor into account?
     
  11. (un)l33t_1

    (un)l33t_1 New Member

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    The .50 AE cartridge does, in fact, have a considerable velocity. Yes, it does have very high penetration and stopping power. In fact, it's muzzle velocity is among the highest of all handguns. Don't let the fact that .45 ACP is a big, slow slug fool you. In this sense, the .50 is much different cartridge. Look at this chart for hand gun ammo: http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am02-e.htm and see what I mean.
     
  12. Meplat

    Meplat Chock full-o-useless information

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    The .50 AE is no slouch.Recoil was not as bad as one would expect, nowhere near as bad as a 454 Casull, probably due to the weight and action of the DE.

    Whole nother leauge from the bulk of handguns though.
     
  13. Conglomera

    Conglomera Proud Toilet Cleaner

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    If it's a question... you must know that there's four main factors that are responsible of a projectile capability to penetrate X surface... they are the diameter, the mass, the impacting velocity and the bullet nose shape and type.

    The diameter :
    For the example, let's take two standard projectiles having the same mass, shape and velocity but diferent diameters... the one with the smallest caliber will achieve the deeper penetration.

    The impacting velocity :
    Here the two testing projectiles share the same caliber, mass and shape with diferent velocities... the faster one has the better penetration.

    The mass :
    The two bullets has the same caliber, velocity and shape but diferent weights... the heavier one will retain more energy and velocity and thus will travel further through the penetrated surface.

    The nose shape and bullet type :
    This is a rather complicated subject and it must be discussed... let's assume that the testing projectiles are the same in all aspects, except in nose shape... here you can understand that a conical projectile is more penetrating than a flat one, if its pointed it will achieve more penetration than if it was rounded...
    Fully jacketed bullets have better penetration than semi-jacketed soft-pointed ones, because the brass or copper which are the most commonly used metals in bullet jackets are less likely to flatten and deformate than the exposed lead core of a semi-jacketed bullet. There's also the hollow pointed bullets that mushroomises when hitting a semi-fluid (soft) surface like watter or flesh, these projectiles cause more severe wounds to unarmored target but have a relatively poor penetration when compared to the fully jacketed ones. Some bullets tend to yaw and defragmentate after traveling through a certain amount of flesh... the 5.56x45mm NATO cartridge is famous for this phenomenon and may cause more tissue disruption to fat persons than to slim persons in which it will overpenetrate and integraly exit before it starts to tumble, causing "minor" disruptions.
    In addition there's many sort of armor piercing cartridges especialy designed to achieve deeper penetrations even at long ranges. Some of those are designed as anti-personal solutions for heavily armored infantry wearing up to level III body armors, they usualy have a hardened tip and/or core made of special metal alloys. There's also large armor piercing bullets which discard a sabot uppon hitting the target, those big calibers are used in anti-material riffles.
    The previous exemples are just two sorts of AP cartridges among many others.

    The Poncelet (must be a physician of the 19th century) algorithm is the simpliest way (but not the most accurate) to calculate the penetration of a given projectile by oposing the diameter, the mass and the velocity of the projectile to the pressure and density of the hitten surface, assuming that all projectiles are non-fragmenting and non-expanding flat-nosed perfect cylinders. This calculation although not realy accurate for practical purposes, can give us an overall view on projectile penetration and is perfect for comparing diferent types of calibers.


    You may know also that there's not only one sort of bullet in every caliber. Two bullets of a same caliber and designed to be fired from the same weapon can widely differ in characteristics (projectile weight, tail and nose shape, material of construction, powder charge...) such variations are intended to affect both external and terminal ballistics.
    Here is the ballistic datas of two diferent .357 Magnum catridges fired from the same 4" barrel to show the diference :

    Caliber : .357 Magnum
    Weight : 125 grains
    Type : Jacketed Soft Point
    Muzzle Velocity : 1450 Feet Per Second
    Muzzle Energy : 583 ft-lbs

    Caliber : .357 Magnum
    Weight : 158 grs.
    Type : Semi Jacketed Hollow Point
    Muzzle Velocity : 1235 FPS
    Muzzle Energy : 535 ft-lbs

    The greater muzzle velocity a 125 grains .357 Magnum bullet can achieve is when fired from a longer barreled weapon like carabine and it is of about 1500 FPS.
    The velocity of a standard JHP 311 grains .50AE bullet fired from a relatively short barrel is of 1400 FPS.
    Softer .50AE bullets fired from longer barrels may achieve velocities up to 1580 FPS.

    Finaly, for game purpose I suggest that the .50AE and .357 Magnum have the same velocity, the .50AE should be aproximatively 20% more penetrating than the .357 Magnum. Because the .50AE is heavier, it will retain more velocity over distance than the .357 Magnum and will thus travel further.
     
  14. UN17

    UN17 Taijutsu Specialist

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    I love all the statistics, but they way the weapon physics are coded in INF are alien to me. All I can do is look at the other values for other weapons and try to use those as a meter. So... What's your take on the DE chambered for a .50AE?

    It's almost twice as large a bullet. It's a JSP round which means it doesn't penetrate armor well, but devastates a soft target, correct? It should penetrate more than a .357 through brick because of it's mass, right? But how does it fare against Rifle rounds like the AK and the FAMAS? Does it travel further than the other pistol rounds but less so than rifle rounds? Is it a slow round compared to a 9mm?

    Making a DE .50AE skin from the original INF source files was easy. Getting it to show up as a new weapon with it's own ballistics was harder. Making it sound and feel like a large caliber pistol was easy. The hard part is how to set it's ballistic variables to:

    a) reflect the power & accuracy of the .50 magnum round.
    b) "balance" out with the other INF weapons who's ballistics may have been 'sampled' from reality but changed to affect game balance.

    I would rather see a nice big five or six round Revolver show up online than this Hunting & Sport pistol. All the sites I have visited give it generally great reviews on it's accuracy and stopping power, but fail it on it's cost and difficulty in firing (it gives shooters a sore wrist apparently).
     
  15. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    1) ballisticprojectile class - var BulletWeight
    used for the 'maximum wall break thru' calcs... compare with other classes
    2) - other variables like muzzlespeed, range etc should use the 'real' ones... again compare with other classes
    3) - var damagetype
    used for the armor damage calcs. Check out the armor vests and us one that matches the projectiles ability to pierce armor. Don't use a new damagetype cause you would need to then replace the armor and other classes as well.
    4) - var HitEffectClass (or similar)
    use one that matches the impact of a .50... means one with the correct size of its markings and proper reaction on material

    hope this helps...
     
  16. UN17

    UN17 Taijutsu Specialist

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    Yes Beppo it helps, but I already did a BallisticProj class :) What I don't know how to do is "real" gun stuff. That's why I asked the people here about how the .50 should handle in respect to existing INF weapons :) But thanks for the DamageType var, now I know that I can't make armor respond to the .50 without rewriting armor too. I was hoping to find some kind of hook to pass a DamageType variable into the Armor script, but guess not.
     
  17. Hurin

    Hurin -SkillZ

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    May i ask what formula or referance you used to recalculate the recoil for a .50 DE?
    According to the information ive gathered the recoil of a .50 caliber DE should be 251% greater then that of a .357 caliber DE.
     
  18. Hurin

    Hurin -SkillZ

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    Oh as for your other question:
    .357 JSP available in following weights with corresponding muzzle velociities:
    8.125g(weight)-442ms(muzzle velocity)
    10.27g-377ms
    11.7g-332ms
    the .50 jsp weighs in at 21.25g-427ms
     
  19. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    oh god no! please! not another "I don't know shit about firearms but let me puke out some data I don't understand" thread...
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2004
  20. UN17

    UN17 Taijutsu Specialist

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    Testing is Fun!

    Don't be so negative in a Development thread, Geogob! Be nicer and constructive! Took the .50 out to the virtual shooting wall for some testing and discovered something I had not noticed before. The Mk23 has the greatest recoil control of all the pistols! Hurrah!

    See attached image.
     

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