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[Mutator]INF Ballistic Tweak

Discussion in 'Infiltration Development' started by Conglomera, Sep 8, 2005.

  1. ant75

    ant75 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

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    I figured it wouldn't be compatible, but my actual question was to see if conglo would consider making it compatible (if that's not possible having 2 different mutators, maybe implement RT in his own code, with geo's permission of course).

    Split it or save what's left of it ? I could find a good deal of people that think RA wasn't such a bad thing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2006
  2. Lemon.fr

    Lemon.fr SkaarjFruit

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    Yea, looking at the features im starting to love IBT, on my server players are ok with it and no one is forced.

    Would be cool if Conglomera would look at the Bloodtrails mutators, it only needs to reset the player state at start of each round and rescale the prints :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2006
  3. hara

    hara Where's my backup?

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    IBT + RT = BIG LOVE
     
  4. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    Dude, while you are at it, why not making movement more realistic, sort of?

    1) The walk stays as it is.

    2) Based my my suggestion stuff, the jog has two characteristics. When the weapon is aimed, you perform a fast walk (SWAT style). The speed is noticeably faster than the normal walk, but the view bob is flat, also the weapon sways, but doesn't bob that huge. Weapon accuracy can be good on close distances (with RT).

    When the weapon is held at the hip, the speed slightly increases and it is a real jog, with more view and weapon bobbing.

    3) Sprint stays as it is.
     
  5. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    I find all feeatures are good, but with that I highly disagree, with "the lighter you are the faster you run".
    Soldiers use "predefined" movement. They train to move fast in a way, where they have control over the weapon (not really to fire during movement, except CQB, but just to have the weapon ready'n'steady). As suggested above, you rather walk fast with a weapon at the shoulder, and rather jog with a low held weapon.
    The other, fast movement is sort of predefined too, to manage the fitness, so you don't move faster only because you are lighter, you rather control your speed not to get to tired.

    Of course if your loadout is really heavy your "predefined" movement is slightly slower.


    I think, movement should be that way:

    1) A very light loadout:
    walk = 100%
    fast-walk/jog = 100%
    sprint = 100%

    2) Full gear (IIIa, helmet, rifle, few mags, few nades):
    walk = 100%
    fast-walk/jog = 100% (stamina decreases slightly faster)
    sprint = 80% (stamina decreases faster)

    3) Overweight:
    walk = 90%
    fast-walk/jog = 70% (stamina decreases faster)
    sprint 50% (stamina decreases very fast)

    4) Unbearable weight:
    walk = 90%
    fast-walk/jog = 40% (stamina decreases very fast)
    sprint = n/a


    Note, 100% is a predefined, trained movement level, less than 100% means you have noticeable weight that affects you (you reduce speed in favour of fitness), where also stamina drops logically faster, but the lower speed causes you to manage stamina loss well enough.

    The percentage below 100% are predefined, but more or less weight will higher, or lower the percent, for example "full gear sprint = 80%". Add a bit more weight and you got 70-75%, reduce a bit more weight and you got 85-90% of speed. Add even more weight and you get the "overweight sprint 50%" status.
    Means, weight affection is flexible to a degree, but they are still movement stages.


    They also should be a loadout type tollerance. Means only because you add a sidegun with few magazines to your standart full gear it should not count as overweight. SWAT officers (with a lot of gear and sidegun) aren't constantly on a crawling trip. They are less agile and fast, than a officer/soldier with only a rifle, but they are fast and fit enough to handle the laodout for a fair ammount of time.
    I would like to see that transferred into INF. Where sideguns and magazines do not really add that much significant weight, but still make a difference.

    Also if you have your full gear, and just strap an M16A2 additional on your back, I don't see how this will add so much weight that you start to "crawl".
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2006
  6. zeep

    zeep :(

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    Good arguments, i agree with Psych. The lighter you are the faster you run is bad. Like holding a knife in counter strike to run faster. Unreal stuff.
     
  7. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    @recoil:
    Those who fired rifles always said the recoil in INF is to huge, so it was weird to see an even higher recoil in IBT.

    Of course fullauto sprayage should be limitted, but not by increasing the total recoil.
    I think the more you hold down the trigger, the more recoil (contineously) increases. The increased recoil should then not only let the view move up (and to the side), but start to sway the gun similar to the M249SAW, when fireing to long (but not that extreme).
    That way short bursts would be usefull with a high accuracy (especially with the nice ROF of the M4A1 in IBT), and spraying more ineffective than with just a higher recoil.

    And is it possible to code a recoil that goes to the right side aswell?



    @freeaim movement:
    My request to mutator makers is always to change the freeaim behavior, but nobody ever cared.
    So my question is: Is it possible to turn down the freeaim mouse sensitivity, without to change the normal view-turn mouse speed?

    My personal wish would also be, to make the freeaim-zone for shouldered weapon less, especially for scopes.

    The freeaim mouse speed and freeaim-zone for hipped weapons should stay how it is.



    @flashbang effect:
    It's ok when you lose aim when hit, but the bang shouldn't make you lose aim always. Note that the aim in INF is the general shouldered weapon position, if you take away the aim, it's like you take away the shouldered weapon aswell.

    When you are really close to the flashbang and it blinds you completely, than the weapon should be unaimed.



    @dying:
    A cool effect would be to hear death screams through the communication system when a mate dies, or is hit. Similar to Rainbow Six. Not always of course.



    @sidegun draw:
    I asked that earlier, but as always nobody agreed.
    The SWAT and CQB SF's always perform a fast sidegun draw, as an emergency action and bring it to aim instantly. In INF you draw the sidegun as fast as a rifle, that's way to slow for CQB.

    So, is it possible to make the sidegun draw, where the pistol is aimed automatical after it was selected, faster than you can aim it by the manual "aim key" click, because you always have to wait untill the "take pistol to hip" animation completes, that takes almost a second, only after that you can tap the aim key and aim. Horribly lame. Real operatives draw and aim that damned thing and squeeze the damned trigger, damnit.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2006
  8. ant75

    ant75 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

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    About the bulk affecting movement :

    Well, as someone said some time ago, it's all about the balance. This feature certainly shouldn't go, it's realistic and provides a good way to balance unrealistic loadouts (robar+m4 for example). That doesn't mean it doesn't need a few more adjustments, but i like it.
    Btw psychomorph, your suggestions are not bad, but i think the way IBT works is actually very close to what you describe (bulk affecting primarily sprint, then jog, and only slightly walk movements).
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2006
  9. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    I think IBT is different. It rather has the totally fluid speed change dependant on the weight. I speak about levels.

    - The gear is light aslong it doesn't reach a "full gear" status. The movement speed is defined by the training.
    - The "full gear" status has the same training level speed, but is affected by a faster stamina drop. The sprint is limitted, to keep the fitness.
    - "Overload" has all decreased slightly.
    - "Unbearable" is screwed, you're tired faster and can't sprint.

    The flexibility, that I speak about just affects things a bit, enough to make a difference between carrying normal gear and a bit more gear, so palyers wont abuse it.
    The tolerance, that I speak about should make it more serious, not like a single pistol, or a light rifle will change your "full gear" status to a "overload", that's pointless.


    And, the movement in IBT is byfar to lame. I mean the sprint is a jog, and the jog is just a walk.
     
  10. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    The INF armory says the llla vest has a hard plate inserted... but ingame the soldier obviously forgot to put it in.

    The hard ceramic plate in the interceptor body armor is lll protection, which should stop rounds from every weapon in INF except the RC50, M2, and M82. Not only does it stop 7.62 rounds IRL but any blunt trama recieved is not significant.

    I guess the INF team thought they would just "balance" it. :hmm:
     
  11. cracwhore

    cracwhore I'm a video game review site...

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    Rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble!
     
  12. ant75

    ant75 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

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    I fail to see how levels are more realistic than a proportional and progressive limitation. Imagine your bulk is 59, and the next level is set at bulk 60 : IRL, if you add a grenade to your equipment, your movement speed wouldn't reduce suddenly by 20%. Instead, the more things you'd carry, the slower you'd sprint. It's only logical, and i don't see how levels are more realistic than that.
     
  13. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    That's what I mean, add a M67, or a pistol and you won't start to move solwer, in current INF if you add one of these to your full gear loadout, you do start to move slower, I mean it is just a nade.

    What I mean is, that you can add stuff to your loadout:
    - Few things (a nade, one pistol, 2-3 pistol mags) don't really change your weight, don't really affect you.
    - More things (a full rifle, 3 grenades, 4 magazines) will affect you as pure weight, means your stamina will decrease slightly faster, actually it works in a way, where tireness and weight makes your "full gear" feel like "overload", only because of the tireness. Even more weight can slightly change your speed, but only a bit, so it doesn't noticeably feel like you are "crawling", in general you still have the "full gear" status.
    - Significan more things create noticeable weight differences and you get your "overload" level, where your behavior changes.

    I mean, that adding a nade won't increase your weight that much that you start to move slower, if it does, than only because you already reached a higher weight before with your total gear.

    The total weight should affect your noticeably, not a single greande.
     
  14. Crowze

    Crowze Bird Brain

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    ... surely that's why rifles are 15-20 bulk and nades only 2. Think of it this way: what you are suggesting (or appear to be suggesting :p), given that the FAMAS and M4A1 are only 1 bulk apart, is that the difference between carrying these two weapons could mean a 20% speed decrease. I think not.
     
  15. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    In current INF, when I have an M16A2, 4 mags, 4 M67 grenades, a IIIa vest and a helmet I'm ok, but if I add another rifle (just rifle at the back), or a pistol with 3 mags, my speed decreases up to 20%. That's what I speak about.
     
  16. ant75

    ant75 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

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    Yes, that's why a proportional and progressive way of limiting the player's speed is better than levels.


    Also i'd like to make a suggestion to conglo : could you think about adding a muscle tremor effect when aiming (especially with scopes) instead of the usual bob ? If you're looking for an example of code, just have a look at RAv3. The muscle tremor was really too high imho (especially when prone) but the effect was really well done.
     
  17. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    But a sidegun, or rifle at back won't make you slower. Weight makes you tired faster. Serious weight decreases your speed as an extreme.


    If you mean the levels that I was speaking about, I meant that levels are defined by serious weight, not just some bulk numbers like in INF.

    They are weight classes, that define your tireness and later your speed type. Adding, or removing stuff will change your tireness level, but keep the movement speed type. Stuff that weights alot will change your movement speed with new tireness levels (because different speed).

    Perform some jogging in real life, when you get tired you never contineuosly slow down, you rather change speed levels to make it comfortable to your body.
    If you run fast, you'll get slightly slower after a time (when more tired). If tired enough you slow down your speed to a slow paced jog, if really tired the jog gets a bit more slower (heavier sort of). When totally tired you walk.


    Some new:

    1. Lightweight
    L1 - Having absolutely nothing you use the normally trained movement (walk, normal jog, sprint), you are fit enough.
    - walk: 100% (maximum fitness)
    - jog: 100% (maximum fitness)
    - sprint: 100% (maximum possible fitness)

    L2 - Carrying just a Rifle (4 mags) and a Pistol (3 mags) and you're still fit enough.
    A good Recon, SpecOps loadout.
    - walk: 100% (maximum fitness)
    - fastwalk/jog: 100% (maximum fitness)
    - sprint: 100% (more stamina decrease)

    L3 (Mediumweight) - Carrying a Rifle (4 mags) and a Pistol (3 mags), 3 grenades and some other minor stuff and you get tired a bit faster.
    A good Recon, SpecOps loadout.
    - walk: 100% (maximum fitness)
    - fastwalk/jog: 100% (more stamina decrease)
    - sprint: 100% (much more stamina decrease)

    To reach the Fullweight level you have to take a IIIa vest, or enought weight (heavier rifle with mags, or two clay mines, or a sidegun with mags and some grenades).


    2. Fullweight (full gear)
    F1 - Carrying a Rifle (4 mags), 4 grenades and a IIIa vest+Helmet and you get tired faster, also your movement is different.
    This is the standart Infantry loadout.
    - walk: 100% (maximum fitness)
    - jog: 90-95% (more stamina decrease)
    - sprint: 80% (much more stamina decrease)

    F2 - Carrying a Rifle (4 mags), 4 grenades and a IIIa vest+Helmet, but add just additional a Pistol (2 mags), or a loaded Rifle (light), or few more mags/grenades.
    This additional weight will make you tired faster, but doesn't really change your speed. So if you don't need it, don't take it.
    - walk: 100% (maximum fitness)
    - fastwalk/jog: 90-95% (slight more stamina decreas than F1)
    - sprint: 80% (slight more stamina decreas than F1)

    F3 (Heavyweight) - Carrying a Rifle (4 mags), 4 grenades and a IIIa vest+Helmet, but add a Rifle (2 mags), or a Shotgun (some shells), or a Pistol (3-4 mags) + 1-2 grenades.
    This is a heavy CQB loadout, Infantry soldiers better stick with F1.
    - walk: 100% (a bit stamina decrease)
    - fastwalk/jog: 90% (much stamina decrease)
    - sprint: 70% (much stamina decrease)

    Exceed the F3 loadout and you get Overweight.


    3. Overweight (not recommended)
    O1 - Add some serious stuff to F3 and you get overweight, speed changes, tireness is more serious.
    - walk: 90% (more stamina decrease)
    - fastwalk/jog: 70-80% (heavy stamina decrease)
    - sprint: 50% (very heavy stamina decrease)

    Exceed the O1 loadout and you get Unbearable-weight.


    4. Unbearable (very bad)
    U1 - Add some serious stuff to O1 and you get unbearable, speed changes, tireness is screwed.
    - walk: 90% (much more stamina decrease)
    - fastwalk/jog: 50% (huge stamina decrease)
    - sprint: n/a

    Weight beyond Unbearable won't be picked up.




    As you see serious weight defines movement levels (influences tireness aswell), but adding, or removing just minor stuff to your loadout will just influence your fitness and recovery.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2006
  18. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    DOn't talk to me about speed limitation. I think it's BS to whine about it. with my average loadout at 80, i'm pretty slow in game, yet it doesn't make me less effective, even in leagues like the DTASAL or the ILCR, which had very different game styles.

    But I agree that it's not very realistic.
     
  19. ant75

    ant75 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

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    Well if you're talking about redesigning the whole loadout system and adding weight values to each item, IBT is not gonna be able to do it, so there's really no point in discussing it here.
    But if you insist on telling me that, with the current bulk system, a 4 levels limitation is more realistic than a proportional one, you failed to understand how reality works.
     
  20. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    I'm not telling to redesign the weight values for each item. IBT creates specific movement speeds and tireness for all loadouts allready, I just fail to see how a standart infantry loadout (IIIa vest, helmet, rifle, 4 mags, 4 grenades) can transform my jog to a walk, and allow me to move at a fast pace only when I sprint with the speed of a slightly faster jog.


    And I fail to see how a light weight rifle adds so much weight to me, that I start to move 30% slower, just by having slinged it at my back. That's how it works in the normal INF.


    Maybe the speed doesn't appear wrong to you in the 1st person. I remember my AVP2 mod, I was modifying the marine movement speed too. I wanted to make it a bit more "tactical" (slower paced), while in the 1st person it appeared ok, I was surprized when I switched to the 3rd person (looking from the side), the run looked like this guy was pretty much taking a relaxed easy and slow jog in the morning.
    The alien appeared fast in the 1st person with strong leaps, in fact it was like a "turtle" and jumped only about two meters to the front.
    And note that I corrected the animations, so when a foot touched the ground it didn't slide.


    Yes, the standart INF speed was a bit to "tough" for this loadout, but adding little weight to it changed it to extremely on other hand.
    IBT is actually an improvement imo, because bulk numbers doesn't affect you that much as in standart INF, my only problem with IBT is, that the movement is just to slow for such an loadout. SWAT units, who carry by far more weight, would need to rethink their tactics if weight would slow them down that extremely.

    Also the very light loadout should not let you run like a sportsman on doping, because you would run out of energy faster than you can spend your mags. As suggested in my weird posts, the movement should be fast, but not to fast, more predefined, with just more fitness in comparison to a full loaded soldier.

    If you mean the limitted speed should prevent the player from moving fast and spraying around, than I personally would rather prefer to make the movement with a shouldered weapon beeing changed to a slightly slower paced "fast-walk" and the at the hip carried weapon beeing the slightly faster "jog", as a perfect movement to get from a distant point to another distant point.


    Ok, whatever, forget it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2006

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