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Map flow

Discussion in 'General Infiltration Discussion' started by jlamb_vo, Oct 17, 2001.

  1. jlamb_vo

    jlamb_vo {GD}Spunky{Pfc}

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    Okay, disclaimer: this in no way reflects a higher opinion of Counter-Strike nor its affiliated parties/imitations. I have nothing against Day of Defeat, only fantasize of a collaboration with Team INF.

    That said :)

    I do have to acknowledge that CS and DoD really have some admirable qualities in map-design that IMO need to be addressed in Infiltration.

    INF's maps tend to be beautiful, large and wide open, good recreations of believable locations. The problem with this is that in TDM, with our limited communications and (although this is improving) little incentive to stay together in groups, players tend to disperse immediately between the many different paths (read Sicily/Kosovo for instance). This can often result in incoherent mayhem full of accidental TKs and basically free-for-all action... good group firefights are often by accident or flukes resulting from team players.

    Maps also tend to be circular in design, which at the end of the round often results in people running in circles looking for each other.

    If you look at many maps, there are usually 2-4 routes to the enemy base, which are basically isolated from one anothe en-route. So if you go down one and your enemy chooses another, you can run circles around each other until accidentlaly running into each other, often in an anti-climactic twitch fight.

    CS and DoD maps can also be large and have many different routes, but the main difference seems to be that the map is inherently linear. Obviously there are exceptions, but overall there tends to be main vessel that has many different paths within it, but these are frequently exposed to each other. Any tangent routes tie back in to the main route before reaching the enemy starting location.

    Look at DoD's Cean. It is basically one wide path between the two bases, with lots of cover, buildings to enter, and back alleys that are all part of a single route. While linear map design can have the effect of the same repetitive encouncters, Caen allows a wide variety of encounters in the terrain that stays interesting, while still keeping a focused flow... no matter where you go you are bound to run into each other.

    Granted the gameplay in DoD is very different and hard to compare... but I hope you get my thoughts.

    Maybe improvement will come with the new gametypes, CTF/Assault style games by virtue will have more focus... but I still think this is important to keep in mind.
     
  2. WhackZero

    WhackZero whack0

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    good points

    but i think you shoulda posted this in the inf dev forum...
     
  3. ANUBIS199

    ANUBIS199 New Member

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    SPUNKY!!!! er.... um,Jlamb_vo. Im already terrified of the next maps that are coming out, I fear they will all be big giant circles.

    Does anyone remember any of the old old Unreal maps, some of them were done very well and in the same fashion Cean was done. One of the reasons I like bullcourt (new one but still good) so much is that its very linear in its design, sure it could use a few more little alleys, but for the most part it is a well done map. Another thing with linear vs non-linear is that respawns dont hurt linear maps while with non-linear respawns become instant death nightmares. When you respawn in Cean you have a good degree of insurance that you wont be shot the moment you walk out onto the first street, but in maps like Dockside you are almost certain to be shot right away if respawns are on(damn spawn campers).

    More on this latter, need to go to class.

    ANUBIS
     
  4. The_Fur

    The_Fur Back in black

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    if the enemy is "spawncamping" you yourself are to blame, yoir fault for not defending your spawns.
     
  5. poaw

    poaw You used to sleep easy at night.

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    The difference is in CS or DoD one person can't kill everyone on the enemy team in 3 seconds using one magazine of ammuntion.

    Linear maps are predictable maps, after the first three times you play them you'll never see anything new. I like INF's style of open type maps.
    Linear maps simply become brute force contests which lack thought. Take cs_assault for example, it's nigh impossible to do anything on that map that will surprise the other team, mostly because you can only do 4 or 5 things at max. Compare that to Sicily, you only have 3 or 4 initial routes you can take, but those routes cross and intersect eachother allowing you to use a wider variety of tactics.
     
  6. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    You have to admit, a "linear" map is, in a way, pretty much unrealistic.
    Give any location/area in the world, and I am sure there is a much more than just 3 ways in or out of it - It feels wierd being contained in a "box". I know its a requirement of any map, but I hate the ones that make it evident.
    Where does an appropriate use of tactics come into play with only head-on fighting? Thats the corner camping problem as well. You can't just point at a wall and KNOW that an enemy will come along into your sight.
    It may take an hour, but the enemy can almost always circle around.

    The fault here is not the 'circular' maps, but the gametype...
    TDM doth suck.
    Soldiers never go into an area looking to just fight enemies without purpose. You have a centralized objective, you will have centralized fighting. Perhaps some to prevent enemy reinforcements, or to make sure of your own.

    Look at this example.

    TDM: 2 players choose to camp inside a house in sicily with only one way out, and are known to be there. They blast anyone who comes in(or at least cause heavy casualties in the process), winning the map for thier team.
    Other game type: 2 players camp inside a house with only one way out, known to be there. They do nothing for thier team. In order to complete thier objective, they need to leave the house.
    The people positioned by the front door have the last laugh.

    See how this works?
     
  7. ANUBIS199

    ANUBIS199 New Member

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    If you think about it real life is not as open as you might think. In a map the size of Sicily you would certainly not have such a small number of troops in an engagement (spelling?). Even special forces would not assign such a small number if the fighting was to take place on a map like Sicily. In Mogadishu (now I know the spelling of that is just wrong) we deployed over 100 special force troops in an area surrounding one hotel about the area of sicily.

    You have to look at linear maps as if you are fighting in a much larger engagemeant and are attacking only one part of the enemy lines. In cases such as this flanking is not something that happens often, and if it does it is because one side was defeated in another area and left their friends vunerable. Most fights are frontal attacks against fortified postions, why do you think grenades and other such weapons were made, to allow soldiers to effectivly attack(and defend) such targets.

    Real war and real fighting NEVER look the way the fights do in sicily or siberia. And if you ask me the fights in the circle maps are just as boring perhaps even more so than in linear maps. I may know the area in which the enemy is but I dont know exactly where he is, its much like that in real life (unless you are scouting, thats just scary). We are emulating special forces right? Do you really think special forces would move into an area without some kind of intelligence as to where the enemy is(although in Mugadishu they didnt know where because they didnt count on half the city attacking them)?

    Linear maps done right can be very fun while done wrong they just suck. Circle maps sit right in the middle, not great but not bad.


    ANUBIS
     
  8. LoTekK

    LoTekK Peon

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    as has been stated many times before:
    no, No, and NO!
    we're grunts... run-of-the-mill infantry soldiers...
    goddamn, i'm glad you weren't my instructor in boot and OCS... :con:
     
  9. jlamb_vo

    jlamb_vo {GD}Spunky{Pfc}

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    hmmm

    Oh yeah, I reposted this to a more appropriate place in a different room. I forgot I would have to followup to this one too :)

    Like I said at my other post, I think I have overgeneralized a bit and this has been taken a little more harshly than I intended. I find most of INFs maps enjoyable and I have always preferred open maps ideally because real life is open ended and thus so should these game locations.

    But...

    I do have to point out that in real life, soldiers have this thing called communication. Often by swift devices such as radios, and do not have to sit down at their laptops and type messages to their allies whenever they spot an opponent barreling past the alley opening you are walking down. Okay I'll tone down the sass :)

    The point is that with the current state of communication a bunch of strangers cannot function as a coordinated team without visual contact with their allies. In Sicily, as soon as the team fragments between the three routes, they are small pockets of people doing their own thing without knowing what anyone else is doing. Granted this isn't always the case, sometimes there is a refreshing game where people stick together, but not often as I recall (I havent been able to play much since before 2.86 came out :( I think the problem is actually that Sicily, while sometimes great times, essentially has three linear paths that have one intersecting road... maybe it just needs more visibility between the blocks so players know where they need to go.

    I dunno, this was just an out loud thought that could have used some more refining. I think it comes down to what Yurch said... TDM is utterly purposeless and does not require much from the team. Almost any of the existing maps would be just fine for territorial or task-oriented gameplay, I'm looking forward to 2.87 and EAS.

    And a shout out to Anubis, its good to hear from you (we've discussed this issue quite a bit :)
     
  10. ANUBIS199

    ANUBIS199 New Member

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    erm, your right, flanking is a great tactic when it can be used. And because it is so deadly a maunver, defenders (and attackers) take a great deal of steps to insure that this doesnt happen. Sicily and other maps play out like a game of deathmatch (your very right, TDM really really sucks), half the kills I get in TDM are from the back, this really shouldnt be. Hopefully EAS will come out and none of this will mater anymore, I (or someone) really should have started this arguement an long time ago.

    ANUBIS
     
  11. BlAcK_PlAgUe22

    BlAcK_PlAgUe22 I ooze.

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    Yeah, Caen is a great map. But i never see teamwork. Usually people go alone, and then get killed by snipers or light's. If they take the allies, you almost always have camping in the windows and wall cracks. Still a fun map though :)
     
  12. ANUBIS199

    ANUBIS199 New Member

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    Your right about the lack of teamwork, but the map kinda forces it. The problem with are currant maps is that they split the team up very quickly and into many different paths.

    ANUBIS
     
  13. The_Fur

    The_Fur Back in black

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    walking together like sheep IS NOT TEAMWORK

    therefor maps like caen and bullecourt do not force teamwork.
     
  14. jlamb_vo

    jlamb_vo {GD}Spunky{Pfc}

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    No walking together as a tight group makes a nice juicy target for grenades or spray-n-pray.

    Teamwork DOES involve coordinated efforts, which is hardly possible when you are on the opposite side of an urban environment that blocks LOS and has no cross-streets to speak of, and everyone lacks any method of speaking. Typing orders or requests in INF right now is about as practical as writing notes to each other in a firefight.

    I really would never think of intending ANYTHING this extreme, but if everyone was funnelled down one wide street that was slewn with debris, people would develop effective teamwork skills very quickly, or simply give up in frustration.

    A team can, and in modern warfare has to, be spread out to be effective, but many maps we have right now allow that but give little means to do so effectively. We don't even have anything to indicate who is who and where they are. Sure maybe the guy right in front of you, but what does it mean when you hear Fuzzy_Bear666 shout "man down" or SumGie[GFH] yell "Fragout!" Sure it sounds cool but you can't really do anythig about as a casual player on a public server with a bunch of strangers.

    I think that maps could be developed to make players see how to work functionally as a team, really just speaking as a person who plays only on public servers to date with different people all the time.

    But I understand the distinction and I know, take to heart and respect that this is an aspect of INF that differs from other Mods. But something needs to be done to accomodate team players more, and map design CAN accomplish that without been really limiting. Even a allies-only radar HUD addition would help, with indicators of whos saying the current message. I know this isnt realistic and people have poo-pooed that a lot, but in real life they could be tracking each others position in ways that we can't.

    What about a Radar panel like thing that only updates someones position when that player hits a "relay position" key... eliminate the death messages and there could be some very interesting developments...
     
  15. The_Fur

    The_Fur Back in black

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    all we need is a cs style coms system and were set, the mappers don't have any obligation other then to provide us with realistic and believable locations.
     
  16. jlamb_vo

    jlamb_vo {GD}Spunky{Pfc}

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    Oh and Black_Plague, I know you are right about what usually happens in Caen on DoD. Thing is though, and this is why I hesitated using it as an example, the gameplay in DoD is drastically different from INF. There is no penalty for dying save a short wait, and even perks for killing besides an ego boost... and I think usually when there is finally some teamwork is when someone finally wins. I was just imagining that map in INF, because when I DO see people use teamwork on that map, it can be very effective.

    I did use it as an example, and this is partially my original point I think, is that even with loners going beserk, the map is designed such that people support each other by default. Maybe its because the map does fork off, but not immediately. They fork off and each become one of several enterances to the main point of conflict. So you go your own way, but may be potentially flanking the enemy to the aid of the people who chose to go the other way... You shoot a german in the back who was covering an enterance other allies couldn't get in.. you may not have intended it, but it works. If the map had forked off immediately into entirely different segments of the map, the gameplay would be much less smooth.

    Ugh... man I ramble. Sorry folks.
     
  17. McMuffin

    McMuffin The sh¡ttiest Infiltrator

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    McMuffin's Infallable Decree of Map Layout :)

    TDM is crap

    The best TDM is, in effect, 1 big largely open square... maps such as Brikby, Island, and Remagen are good examples. Though Remagen is way too slow, cpu-wise.

    Linear is bad, predictable repetative gameplay always results. And no, it does NOT encourage teamwork. The only thing I've seen it encourage is line-of-fire FF incidents. Say you go to the store, you go pick up a carton of eggs. Simultaneously another person gets a carton of eggs. Did you work as a team buying eggs?

    Circle and Maze style maps such as Sicily are also bad, since there is no effective means of organizing, as jlamb_vo said.
     
  18. striderteen

    striderteen New Member

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    Everyone has a sound card nowadays, so how about a built-in audio comm system? Kind of like Game Voice / Roger Wilco, only built into Infiltration to begin with?
     
  19. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    can't do that. No engine licence.
     
  20. spm1138

    spm1138 Irony Is

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    TDM pretty much always results in moronic gameplay, no matter what you are playing.

    Assault (and CTF and Domination) is what you need for interesting games. When you've got an objective to achieve (and provide focus to the gameplay) and big open ended maps, you get cunning and tactics and all sorts.
     

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