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Manual Sight Alignment

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by keihaswarrior, Jun 16, 2004.

  1. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    I suggested this before, but I hadn't thought of a good way to implement it. I don't know why I didn't come up with this before, since it is fairly simple.

    To start, the sights on the weapon do not automatically align. Instead, the player only has direct control over the front post with the back sight lagging behind (similar to sight misalignment in RAv2).

    To aim, the player does one of three things:
    1) The range is so close that it doesn't matter if the sights are aligned, so the player just eyeballs it and fires.
    2) The player trys to muscle the sights by first dragging the back sight onto the target by leading it with the front (since the player only controls the front directly). Then, the player drags the front post back onto the target to roughly align the sights.
    3) The player stands still and moves the front sight into alignment with the back. With them aligned, he holds down alt-fire. Alt-fire locks the sights together, so the back sight no longer lags behind. This allows the player to shoot accuractly even against moving targets.

    PROs:
    More realistic, players need to achieve the correct sight picture to shoot. The "sight radius" of pistols vs rifles actually means something, as do the advantages/disadvantages of different styles of sights. Players will have to take a more realistic amount of time to aim accurately.

    CONs:
    Harder for newbs, not totally compatible with the current scope system.
     
  2. Derelan

    Derelan Tracer Bullet

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    I think its hard enough to aim with some guns (Famas, p90) as it is.
     
  3. Dr.J

    Dr.J advent child.

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    if anything, id vote for someone ripping the weapon alignment system straight out of RAv2. that was how id like to see it done. i loved that system.
     
  4. Shrap

    Shrap Beaver

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    So do I dr. J !
     
  5. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    Wrong.
    The rough sight picture is going to come up naturally when you put the rifle to your face. If you have the ability to 'lock' the sights in an orientation, why aren't they locked in the same way every time?

    The properties of using a vectored 'alignment' are best for introducing small errors for quick, careless shooting, and for two (three?) more dimensions of rotation for breathing, wobble, hipshooting and the like.

    Having to manually align the sights is beyond the realm of intuitive shooting, and is not realistically that difficult. Keeping them steady that way is harder.
     
  6. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    Well I don't think it worked all that great. To someone inexperienced, it seemed hard to aim with.

    When I actually tested it on the range, the wobble/bob was mainly superficial. If I aimed straight ahead, the bullet would go the same place if the back sight was misaligned to the left as it would to the right.

    Also, there was a break in the wobble between moving and being still. Therefore, it was easy to jog, stop, and immediatly shoot before the standing wobble started.
    ----
    @ Yurch
    I don't know why you say "Wrong". When someone aims a pistol, the proper alignment of the sights is far from automatic. For a rifle, it would be easier but the sights still don't align themselves on target automatically, why else are soldiers taught what the proper sight picture should be when aiming the rifle?

    Also, people aren't robots. Therefore, the sights wouldn't be in the exact same position everytime the rifle was brought to the eye.

    I think this would be one of the better ways to see how different types of sights/optics behave against one another. With INF's current system, the front sight post is the only thing used to aim. Other types of sights like reflex don't change that, they are just a little red dot on the front post... :hmm:
     
  7. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    I'm saying your system isn't realistic. If the sights just lock into some alignment while pushing a key, there's no reason for it not to be just automaticaly locked into the proper one. All it really spells for the player is is robotic fumbling with the controls to 'prepare' the rifle properly before firing. Have you even considered moving targets with this?
    Shooting a pistol or rifle may not be 'automatic', but it sure isn't as clumsy as this. If I can put sights on a rapidly moving orange disk and follow it with a shotgun in real life, why shouldn't I be able to follow a man-sized target in inf?

    And as for RAv2's very primitive 'system'(which is hardly a good example), it had no wobble or bob... other than the superficial bob default 2.86 already had. The camera moved but the weapon stayed in the same spot.
     
  8. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    I don't think you quite took the time to understand my suggestion, or maybe I didn't explain it very well.

    The player only controls the front post. The back post follows the front as if it was on a small teather or leash.

    To hit a moving target, the player first moves the front post onto the back and forms a correct sight picture. Once the player thinks he has a correct sight picture he holds alt-fire. Now, both sights are controlled by the mouse and move as one. The orientation that they move in, was the orientation that the player put them in right before holding down alt-fire.

    Therefore, once they are locked it becomes easy as pie to hit moving targets (provided you aligned the sights correctly).

    I don't think players would be monkeying around with controls. It would be fairly fast an intuitive. Drag front to back, hold alt-fire, drag onto target and fire.
     
  9. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    Manually adjusting the sights is something you do almost automatically in real life. Means you trained to hold your weapon in a proper way. With training you do this without even thinking about it.
    Now place a manual alignment in a game... will suck... simply due to the fact that people will need to press key combos or whatever to align their weapon. Something they would do automatically if they were a real soldier. Nobody lifts the weapon to then let the front post point way to the left or right. You would need to use the current 'swing' of the weapon and so the amount of time needed to properly align the front post would depend on where the system starts to jump in. Waaaaay tooooo much to handle for a player imho.
    Misalignment is something that should be brought to a proper alignment automatically. Cause this is what you would do in real life too. No need for extra key presses aso.
    The automatic alignment is based on the current 'swing' of your weapon already. It is a tweening between two animations and so it perfectly simulates what you do automatically in RL too.

    Be sure that such a system will not be implemented. Simply cause I will not program a simulator where you need to tell your left arm to move a bit to the right or left manually by using keys. This is natural stuff...

    If you want to simulate or better implement such things that are done naturally without thinking about them in RL, then you would need to place each footstep manually too for example. Something I do not want to see in a game. Stuff in-game should not be made harder than it is in RL. You play well trained soldiers in this game, not weapon newbs that haven't shot a single round in their life before, period.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2004
  10. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    This alone would need way more than a second, even longer if the target is moving fast cause you cannot follow that target and align the sights at the same time if both movements are controlled with the mouse. Even if using seperate keys or other things. You would be unable to align your sights, follow the target and maybe even move slightly to the left or right.
    If you train it you would maybe make it in one sec, but I doubt it.
    Infantry fights are not a 'stop, aim weapon, align your sights, then fire' kind of thing with a 'hey, please stop moving' shouted over to your enemy.
    Uncontrolled aimed shooting or even hip-shooting will then become much more effective as aimed and aligned shooting simply because it is not controlable in a very short amount of time. And if the general misalignment will only be one or two pixels, then the whole feature will be obsolete.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2004
  11. Wolf Being

    Wolf Being .

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    Admit it keihaswarrior, you thought of this while you were trying to hit the urinal in the restrooms at work. :p
     
  12. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    No, I think I understood it quite clearly.
     
  13. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    The only thing I have against playing a well trained soldier is what it does to the way games play out in terms of realism.

    Many of the players here put numerous hours into the game, and as a result get very good. IF, as you say, we play well trained soldiers, then that gained skill is added ontop of the skills given to us by the game's mechanics. What this results in is a virtual soldier with far better aim and abilities than soldiers in real life. Due to these "virtual super soldiers" the realism of online play is brought down because you constantly see things done by players that aren't possible/likely to happen IRL.

    I do see your point tho. If you make the game hard enough that the veterens are equal in skill and ability to most real life soldiers, then the newbs will possibly find it far too difficult to fight as well as the trained soldiers they are trying to portray.

    So although I think that giving the player very few skills to start with and making him/her earn the rest just as a bootcamp recruit would IRL, that might not be the best thing for making it enjoyable to the "casual" players.

    --oh well, this will just have to be my dream then :B
     
  14. MP_Duke

    MP_Duke Banned

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    This game is really about tactics, not a training simulator for shooting.
    And for that matter, all the players i know who have/had military experience all tell me that shooting in real life is actually easier than it is in INF :rolleyes:
     
  15. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    have to second Duke here...

    KW... you haven't replied to the part where I said that it will be impossible to align your sights while following the target. How do you think should something like this work? How will you give a player the ability to do this simultaneously without the need to press a bunch of keys at the same time (what 99% of the keyboards out there do not like or aren't able to do)?
     
  16. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    Well, you wouldn't align the sights while following the target. First you would align the sights, then follow the target. I don't see why that's important. It only takes half a second to put the sights on-target once they are aligned, so no real reason to need to multitask like that and align while moving them around.

    I don't think it is too complicated. Move front sight onto back, hold alt-fire, shoot target. :)

    You could also make the back sight follow the front more closely when crouched, or even prone. For CQB, there would be no need to align the sights perfectly, just point and fire.

    @ Duke,
    Which players were these? Oviously, if they are trained in IRL but are new to the game, then they might find INF shooting much more difficult.

    I am just wondering what soldiers with super aim do to the game's tactics. Just as the soldiers in 2.86 were ultra-super, the tactics needed to win were much different from those IRL. 2.9 is obviously way better, but nothing's perfect eh?
     
  17. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    There is a difference between ease of shooting and time required for accuracy.
     
  18. Dr.J

    Dr.J advent child.

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    i only play with airsoft guns, but my experience with them tell me this - there is no challenge in getting the sights aligned. the problem is the sight picture moving because of muscle tremor (which is NOT emulated in inf when you hold your breath). thats what makes it hard in real life to hit something further than 30-40m standing (at least with my crap skills anyway ;) ) with an airsoft gun.

    EDIT: next time i should grammar check.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2004
  19. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    Do you mean generally aligned or perfectly aligned? With my suggestion, the gun would stay generally aligned all the time, but precise control would be given to the player instead of being done for him.

    If you are saying that you have no trouble perfectly aligning the sights, then I guess my experience is a bit different with shooting. I find it a bit tough to perfectly align the sights, and actually that using a scope for aimed, controlled shooting to be easier.

    Could you explain your point here more? Even though time required for accuracy may be for slightly different reasons than aligning the sights, it seems like the effect on gameplay is the same.

    If you make the player wait x number of sec for his weapon to stop waving about, I don't think that would be as enjoyable as leaving it skill dependant.
     
  20. Bushwack

    Bushwack Avenged Sevenfold...

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    you have trouble aligning sites on what kind of weapon KW?........Airsoft guns, although simliar in appearance to thier real counterparts, ARE NOT, and never will be close to firing/handling the real thing. If you cant align the sites properly, its probably due to how little training you might have had in shooting, proper stance, breathing control, lots of factors.....

    Do you have long/short arms?
    Is the weapon your handling too large for your grip?
    Do you have small hands?
    Long fingers?
    Strong/weak hands?
    How is your eyesight?
    Near far sighted?
    Nervous?
    Is the weapon operator in a relaxed state, or fatigued?
    Is the operator under direct enemy fire?

    those are just off the top of my head, then there are environmental factors involved as well, that will all affect the accuracy of someone shooting.

    Why would you want to change the current aiming system anyways? it 'closely' simulates the ease of which a trained soldier would shoulder and fire the weapons we have {with a 'snap' to the shoulder in proper stance}.

    I think Yurch meant that extreme accuracy is something thats done with patience and training, IE Sniper, most soldiers are accurate enough to be considered very dangerous with the weapons they are trained to use, a trained soldier, doesnt necessarily mean that he can shoot along side of a sniper and match him for accuracy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2004

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