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M16A2 Sight solution

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by Psychomorph, Sep 8, 2004.

  1. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    I aways thought about how to solve the m16 sight problem.
    The M16 sight (peephole) is extreme small, but I tried myself (not with the m16) to take a small plate with a small hole and noticed, that in comparison to the plate the hole looks much bigger if close to the eye, than if on distance. The blurry effect and some other cause, that if you aim this sight, it looks much bigger and do not cover the view.

    I thought about that and think the single solution would be to implement 2 different sights for the usual m16 (shouldered, hipped, reloading) and for the aimed M16.

    Therefore, I did a pic:
    [​IMG]

    First Pic
    When the M16 is held normal, the sight is like the true one, very small hole.

    Second Pic
    When the M16 is aimed, you have the same effect like the sight is close to the eye. Sadly they is no blurry effect, but the bigger looking hole.
    And aiming is easy.


    Logically I think all weapons that have the rearsight close to the eye, should have this kind of effect. Other sights, like the AK, Reflex, Red Dot and what ever should stay as they are.

    Dont know how easy it is to implement 2 diferent sights to one model.
    I think about an animation, where the aimed weapon model get a bigger sighthole and a smaller one again if shouldered or similar.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 27, 2004
  2. Captain Colon

    Captain Colon New Member

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    IMO it's fine how it is, one of the drawbacks of the m-16 is that aperture sights suck, and you should consider that when making your loadout.
     
  3. Dr.J

    Dr.J advent child.

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    this is something thats really not that significant... also this may be what SS tried to do and as you can see you know what happens to the rear sight... personally i dont think that this should be implemented, having the rear sight modelled properly and then having it close to the eye is enough. being able to see more as a small hole is brought closer the camera is something that naturally happens anyway..
     
  4. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    I don´t think, it is ok, to have the rearsight hole as small as it is and leave out the effect that appears in real life when bringing the rearsight close to the eye.

    The INF M16 rearsight always bugged me off, I wished a true one, but fact is, that looking through such sight, the hole appears much bigger in comparison to the plate. And we should leave this realistic advantage out? I don´t know.

    And since this effect appears only if aiming the sight, it should act in the game the same, namely if you aim. But having the gun in different positions, where the sight is not close enough to the eye, should have a true looking rearsight.


    Leaving that feature out, I would always comlain, if having a huge ass sight when handle the weapon, and would complain the same having small rearsight if aiming and see nothing (which would be unrealistic at all).

    ------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]

    I know, this is not the best comparison, but just compensate the sizes of both m16 rearparts and compare the both rearsights. You´ll notice the hole at the second pic is bigger in comparison to the plate.
    It is a real effect having such things closer to the eye.

    Since the aimed gunmodel is not that close to the eye, it should include this effect anyway, just to make the m16 playable.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 27, 2004
  5. Dr.J

    Dr.J advent child.

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    i said that in 3d space that this does happen. but like your pic it just takes a lot of zooming into. anyway you were taking pics of the smaller aperture, which is really not useful for inf ranges.. perhaps on extremeprejeduce and road to kandahar, but all the other maps im pretty sure youd be using the larger aperture.

    and also, were powerless to change the M16A2 model anyway... you might jump for joy when i finally make a carrying handle on the M16A4, but i seriously dont think SS are gonna do anything about the M16A2 in 2.9.

    and until were gonna get a camera system with lenses, you can really forget about stuff blurring when going out of focus. thats not gonna happen for doom3 or hl2, so really, forget UT unless you want sprites (i personally prefer 3d iron sights)... i really dont want expanding/contracting sight apertures.
     
  6. Lasersailor184

    Lasersailor184 The_Punisher

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    Guys, this is really hard to do with some engines. From what I've heard about asking through TTR and other stuff, to pull this off, you would need to render the screen twice (I believe). If you have an Alienware computer worth 20k dollars, you'll be alright. But not everyone has this stuff. So it's really not worth it.
     
  7. Dr.J

    Dr.J advent child.

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    well i think first off youre gonna need a filter effect you can chuck over your sights that will blur the rendered image - not something were gonna be getting in realtime for a hell of a long time... maybe when the realtime raytracing engines come out well get something acceptable for this... or maybe an engine that allows for something like anti-aliasing where the engine just over samples the model at certain ponts heaps and produces a blur like effect just like the smoother edges when you have FSAA on.. its the reason why when games want blurred out rear sights like in amerias army or operation flashpoint, they use 2d sprites... theyre too flat for me and kinda take away from the experience personally since they are 2d and wont deform in any way...

    and like i said i personally dont like the idea of having sight apertures that enlarge and shrink as it moves closer or further away from the camera.

    in short, i really dont think we can do anything about this yet - its just not possible....
     
  8. OICW

    OICW Reason & Logic > Religion

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    Perhaps you could have the rear 3D model sights and rear portion of the weapon slightly transparent? It "could" (not a coding expert) be somewhat easier than trying to blur everything but the front sight post out, or putting a blurred texture on the 3d model rear sights...

    Anyway, we can't do too much more with UT, so we'll have to wait and see what Sentry Studios does for Inf in the future regarding models and model alignment.
     
  9. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    Nice idea OICW - since we can't do blur effect (as it seems), making the inside part of the plate (around the hole) semi-transparent can cause an effect similar enough, at least for the hole part, making a realistic sight effect.
    As for the big/small appertures, in Israel you're taught to almost always use the smaller one, as in ranges under 30m you don't use any apperture (kinda like psychomorph's shouldered mode that should be in the game IMO) and at night the big apperture is still not clear enough to be used, so we use the mode between them.
    In case you don't know what mode I'm talking about for night shooting, it's where the "L" looks like a "V" - using neither peephole.
     
  10. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    First of all, an animation like bigger, smaller getting aperture is easy to do even for UT, but I´m 99% sure SS wont make it for UT, I even sure they wont make any versions for UT anymore (just some packs), so primary I was suggesting it for the next engine.

    Second, I never spoke about blurry effects. I gave just an example of what is in real life and what in RL causes this effect of the peephole getting bigger.
    1) In RL the blurry effect causes a bit transparency at the outside the hole parts. This effect is just very weak.
    2) The perspective let the hole look much bigger as it is. This effect is stronger.

    The 2nd point is what I was suggesting. I do not mean a slow animation, which let this effect look like a mechanical procces on the weapon, but a very fast und unnoticable effect, which appears instantly if you aim the gun. The hole should not get huge ass big, but it should grow a bit, giving you a realistic advantage using rearsights.

    Would you prefer having the rearsight as small as it is, like you are looking exactly on it, or as big like you are looking through it at the distance where the target is? I would prefer the second.


    For example the Uzi:
    A pistol held Uzi is far from the eyes, so the rearsight is original (without any effects) and it that distance the rearsight is smaller at all (not to good to aim).
    If you extract the stock, you hold the Uzi rifle like. That way the rearsight is colse, the rearsight hole is bigger at all, plus the effect I described and you have a pretty much good view looking through the rearsight.

    It is a natural effect, try it yourself, and this effect has nothing to do with blyrriness, the blurryness just give you a bit trancparency outside the hole, but nothing more. The blurryness would be more just about an optical real life effect, but that wouldn´t make the sight bigger, the distance to the eye makes the hole looking bigger.

    Example
    The I's display the plate in a horizontal section. The .'s display the hole.
    Rearsight at distance:
    IIIIIII....IIIIIIII

    Rearsight 'effect' if close to the eye (notice, the sizes of the 2 sights brought into line for comparison sake):
    IIIII.........IIIII


    I don´t say that is the best idea ever, thats why I call it 'Solution'. If somebody has a better solution, so go on, but I can´t imagine anything better.


    @OICW:
    I thought about the transparency too. But maybe it could be musunderstood?
    I don´t want to blame your idea, but I just think my suggestion is more true to life (just without the blurry effect), BUT I could be mistaken.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2004
  11. Dr.J

    Dr.J advent child.

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    actually, it has a LOT to do with blurriness. the fact that your eyes cant focus on something that close to it makes it blurry and its this that makes your little holes look big (this is what i think anyway)... another thing that complicates this is the fact that we actually dont use animations for bringing up sights for our mod team weapons - this is 'simply' a displacement via code and noones managed to catch it anyway... so id say its a pretty good idea. i know what youre talking about, but i still dont like enlarging and shrinking apertures... since at the very least it means exporting at least 2-3 times more animations than normal, which im sure will eat up lots and lots of resources comparatively (and especially with belt fed machineguns... anyone whos seen the concept behind animating them will know what im talking about..).... then theres the fact that i dont like to see my guns deform... but hey thats just my opinion.
     
  12. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    Couldn´t the animation be activated by a command through the aim key click? So after you click this key, after some time (when the animation where the weapon is moving to the middle is complete) this sight animatuion is activated? And clicking again the aim key, will instantly activate the shrinking hole animation?

    Since I´m not a coder and animatior, I just suggest, the ppl who make this stuff have to diceide if this is worth the work or not.

    Only weapons with a close to the eye rersight need this, not the others.

    How you would solve this M16 sight problem?
     
  13. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    Why do you need to enlarge and shrink the aperture? You won't notice if its too big when you have it hipped. Therefore, just make it a bit larger than life and leave it.
     
  14. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    You would notice it if shouldered (if will exist), you will notice it if handle the rifle (reload, select, deselect). And ppl would always notice and complain about the wrong sight. The bigger hole if aimed is kind of self explanating.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2004
  15. Dr.J

    Dr.J advent child.

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    well id say we go for a compromise where we have a 'medium' aperture - in between what would appear to be the 'hipped' and 'aimed' apertures and then perhaps have inf man look a little closer down the sight.

    the problem with making an aiming animation is that you end up displacing the gun all over teh place - i animate so that i have a position that is actually aimed and straight, which when displaced will aim straight down the sight..

    but ill see what i can come up with wehn i make the M4/M16A4 carrying handle.
     
  16. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    Um... I highly doubt that. You are only talking about expanding the peep hole a milimeter or two. You won't notice it when hipped,reloading,etc... Plus, even if you do notice it.. so what?! It would only be a tiny bit off from the real thing. ANYTHING would be an improvement over the m16a2 sights we have now.

    I think making the peep hole a bit bigger for ease of aiming is a stuitable compromise. Plus, doesn't the sight come in different sizes in Real Life? Just say it is the larger version.
     
  17. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    IRL the A2 sights have 2 appertures that u can switch between - big one for low light shooting, and a small one that is much more accurate.
     
  18. jayhova

    jayhova Don't hate me because I'm pretty

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    I really like the idea of doing a transparency for the rear site. After all that's exacly what we have on the FN P90. I like the idea of a small bit of animation on the site as it is aimed to make it go blurry but that's not essential to me.
     
  19. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    My first, old solution to solve this sight problem, to make the whole rearsight transparent, but it could be create some misunderstandment, or just make ppl that want to use real-sights angry.
     
  20. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    Just an idea:

    What about if the rearsight and the frontsight are both 3D (nothing new), but the hole inside the rearsight is a 3D object too, but totally transparent. Then you just need to put a skin on that object, that has the same color as the rearsight skin, while this skin fade fully transparent to the middle and we get a blurry effect.
    Sure, this won´t make the other parts realistically blurry, but it´s a try.

    [​IMG]
     

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    Last edited: Sep 27, 2004

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