Keyword Server Browsing System

[briach]

If people want to play a trial map or racing map they should be able to and if people want to play AS they should be able to.

One thing I think would be really cool, is servers being able to join different server rings with similar theme, so people that want to play vanilla CON with custom maps don't have to sift through racing and trial servers, just like the people that want to play trial don't have to sift thorugh a bazillion regular CON servers to find a server they want to play on.

If servers could join server rings someone could simply type in the server ring they want to search for in the server browser filter (TrialMapGroup or StraightEdge or some other server ring name a group of admins decided to creat)and they'd see all servers that are participating in the server group and not have to look at the other servers.

*edit* Also let there be a way to browse all gametype instead of having to search each gametype. Sometimes people might want to search for a certain type of server, but they don't really care about what gametype it is and it's a pain searching all gametypes, so if there was just an "All Gametype" option that would be great. A lot of servers allow people to vote for different gametypes so if someone wanted to search for a certain server ring that plays different gametypes they won't have to search through each gametype to find all the servers that are in that ring.

I still can't agree with your complaining about other people playing what they want to play, making maps they want to make, or hosting servers with maps they like to play. If you want to play certain maps then host and admin your server or support servers with settings you like, by frequenting them a lot and make a community.

There is a simple solution to multiple server themes within one gametype.

Admins should be given the ability to have a server ring keywords kindof like websites. So if a group of admins want to make a server ring all they have to do is just agree to use the same keyword so people can UToogle it just as if they were filtering for a certain mutator or server settings. I also think their should be an option to search for all gametypes.

Ex: A group of trial server admins agree to use "trial" in their keyword description and more and more trial admins catch on and start putting trial in their keyword description to attract the "trial" playerbase to their server. So if a cool dude wants to play trial maps all he has to do is simply enter trial as a keyword in his filter 8).

The idea of keywords for that type of thing is a good one, but a lot of good ideas that could facilitate similar issues are possible to use, and don't get used. One would have to question how much time and effort into something like that is worth it to make sure it get's used.

Keywords won't work if the developers don't even seem to care about basic naming/version-numbering to begin with.

I've lost track of the number of maps/skins/mutators that have 'newer' versions availble without any indication at all. And don't get me started on people releasing alpha and beta-class content to the public or the kind of amateur developers that insist on calling every ff-ing public release a "beta" as an excuse to not do simple debugging.

Besides ... what keywords would you use for UtComp ?
It does a ton of stuff (handicap-aid, advanced stats-tracking) and practically breaks the entire idea behind mutators (it is far from simple, single-purpose, elegant, clean or compatible).

Or just look at the internet itself. HTML-standard has a good definition for making keywords for pages. However the majority of the pages out there either abuse the keyword system (by using 'false' keywords in the hope of attracting people) or just plain forget about them.

ie :
Epic can help everyone by providing a better search/sort-mechanism and versioning-tools.
The real problem is that developers still need to use them properly for it to become useful.
Those that haven't given a damn about it in the past aren't going to suddenly provide useful version-numbers and keywords in the future.

Just look at the number of maps and skins that forget 'simple' things like clear names, (map)screenshots and content-description even though the features are already provided by Epic. Those guys/girls won't change because they don't give a damn about their audience.

I think giving the power to the admins to agree on using a single keyword like "utcomp" for their servers to indicate their server that has utcomp would be great and would make version numbers less of an importance.

There should be some limitations to stop it from being abused like it is on the web. Maybe 3 keywords per server would stop people from spamming their server to as many playerbases as possible even when they aren't using the settings that the keyword implies.

Please intelligently discuss further.

 

[-AEnubis-]

Falsification would still be a huge problem. What better way to ensure your mutator get's some play if you say, wanna make your own version of UTComp, so you do so, omit certain features, include your own, that you think are better, etc, etc, and simply use that one keyword that you know comp uses, and BAM, now a search for UTComp get's you 18 different competative mutators trying to do the same things, but in different ways.

It's just really hard for me to imagine this not being "yet another useful idea destoryed by exploitation."

 

[JaFO]

UTcomp should not use 'utcomp' as its keyword. You're better of searching for UTcomp by name.

Keywords should tell the players what to expect from a mutator/mod.
It should be stuff like :
- weaponpack
- weapon-mod(ifier)
- powerup
- gamerule(s)
- statistics tracking
- net-code fix (ie : zero-ping)
- brightskins / skinhack /
- hitsounds / hearing-aid
- hud-mutator
- model-mutator (ie : Bighead)
- security
etc.

You shouldn't need to know the name of the mutator/mod to use them, because that goes against the entire reason for keywords.
As I said in the other thread and like -AEnubis- proves ... keyword-systems are very easy to destroy.

Why do you think that search-engines for the web use their own methods of ranking pages ?
It's because keywords rely on content-creators to be honest about their content.
And that just doesn't happen.

There is one keyword that developers can't change : base-class.
If mutators where forced to use a specific subclass of the mutator-classtree then classifying mutators would be easy. The problem is that such a system would stop people from experimenting with weird mutators, but then again ... people might start using mutators like they were meant to be used : as simple mini-mods.

There are a few keywords that should be enforced by Unrealscript :
- alfa, beta, release candidate #, final version ... (the engine should only allow one of these for obvious reasons!)

- build number should be a separate keyword that is automagically incremented after each compile

 

[briach]

As far as exploitation goes, I'd rather have a couple false servers if I filtered out the majority of other servers with settings I don't want.

You'd still be able to verify if the server has the mutators you want on it by looking up it's info which you can do right now, but you'd be able to find a server with the settings you like a lot more efficiently than if you were to just look up the server's information.

The method of making keywords for servers really doesn't have to be well-thought or advanced, imo. Just giving the admins and players more simple tools, to better coordinate their multiplayer playerbase and discover other servers with the same similar settings as their favorite server, could be implemented very effectively, imo. There isn't a need for a centralized authority or strict keyword standards to be in place, the loose form of it can make for a large variety of results. There could be even keywords that are made to target certain irc channel idlers.

The worst outcome of their being a system like this, would be a waste of coder's time, but this seems like one of the much more simple and less time consuming things a coder could use his/her time doing. This doesn't require a mutator maker's involvement or anything complex.

I like your idea about mutator filtering using base class and such, but strict filter standards may just lead to it being inefficient and too complex for a player to bother with, instead of just scanning different servers in his server browser.

 

[-AEnubis-]

Actually, I think what would be more useful for what you are looking for is a wildcard option for mutator filtering.

Basically, is sounds like you want to say, filter all servers running a particular mutator regardless of version. Currently, you have to install that mutator to filter it, and then you only can filter that one version. It'd be cool if in the line for the filter, you could simply wild card the version number, and thus filtering the name of a mutator you're looking for.

 

[briach]

That's a great idea, AEnubis. That would make filtering out mutator series worlds easier and actually worth doing, I haven't tried filtering out mutators yet so if wildcard is already doable for mutators, I wouldn't know, because I don't mind mutators.

I was using different mutator versions as an example and in other threads I argued that this would be a good way to filter for a series of mutators, your idea is way more efficient than mine in that respect.

I still think keywords embedded in server info could be used to filter for different themed servers and that is what sparked the idea originally, because gametypes and specific mutators sometimes don't really say everything about the server's theme.

trial map servers, irc channel based servers, servers admined by members of a specific forum, 1v1 servers, ig, servers with a certain themed maplist, etc

 

[UnrealGrrl]

a good search function in the server browser would be a great idea!

1st have a direct name search (allow each mod or mutator ONE keyword) so people who do know what the mod is called can search for it. UTcomp, Red Orchestra, Deathball, etc.

2nd have a mod/mut type that could be selected with one or 2 sub categories like:

Competitive
Weapons Mod
Total Conversion
Gametype
etc.

Then a sub category for genre or gametype if needed:
Realism
Racing
RPG
CoOp
Team game
Sports
etc.

This should be controlled by the engine and just allow for a very limited number of keywords, like 1 main and 1 or 2 subs.

simple is prob best here, great idea which is something Epic should really do and control via the engine to make it work right. With the tons of mods that are made for UT, its really a necessity.

Falsification would still be a huge problem.
It's just really hard for me to imagine this not being "yet another useful idea destoryed by exploitation."

there might be a few idiots that do this, but most modders are pretty serious about what they do and it wouldnt happen too often i bet. besides, servers that did this would pretty quickly find themselves empty of any serious players actually looking for the mod they wanted to play and if the keyword has to be specified in the mod itself, not by the server admin, i think you get rid of alot of that prob anyway.

 

[JaFO]

...
trial map servers, irc channel based servers, servers admined by members of a specific forum, 1v1 servers, ig, servers with a certain themed maplist, etc

In a way servers can already do this by (a)busing the server-name :

"1v1 server"
"trial map server"
etc.


// UnrealGrrl
Having Epic limit the kind of subtypes used would prevent the 'weird' mutators from being found through keyword-searches.

It does help with localisation though, because the list of keywords can be translated into whatever language is being used.

 

[Neophoenix]

That's a great idea, AEnubis. That would make filtering out mutator series worlds easier and actually worth doing, I haven't tried filtering out mutators yet so if wildcard is already doable for mutators, I wouldn't know, because I don't mind mutators.

I like that idea too, but one thing is missing. What if a person doesn't want to dl and install a mod/mut in order to try it out? I know I would prefer trying something out on-line before I install it on my pc. That way if a player doesn't like something they don't have to hunt down all the files and uninstall it.

 

[-AEnubis-]

Well, there in lies another problem with the way UT currently handles it. The filter GUI doesn't allow you to filter even by package name. You have to have it installed to filter it, which we agree, should be changed. Then because of version renaming, you can only filter for one version.

A filter system more like gamespy did for half-life is what I would want for UT. You could filter any game setting you could set in the server.cfg by name, and filter > < or =. It was brilliant. Add a named custom package filter with wild card support, and the server browser would be unstoppable. It might not be very noob friendly, but any one who ever administrated a HL server could filter down to very specific settings. The current buddy list is great, only really needs a shotgun query option (not that you can't just add and subtract later). Most of the basic settings one may want to filter are pretty easy to read anyways.

Also the way UT also does command line options currently blows ass. There isn't a setting in the gametype list for xloc in most gametypes, you have to turn it on by commandline. I would imagine that would make it tough(er) to filter.

I know it's a little off the subject of mutators, but our server broswer kinda does need some help.

 

[JaFO]

... it might not be very n00b-friendly ...

Enough reason not to develop a filter-system like that.
What you really need is something non-geeks can understand.

Anything else is a waste of time as real geeks either use separate server-browsers (like ASE or Gamespy Arcade & co) or they just enter the server-IP or -URL directly.

 

[-AEnubis-]

Well, even UT via gamespy isn't capable of said filters. I tried it in 99, and you basically couldn't set gamespy to check for a lot of stuff. Haven't bothered with 2k4, since there is at least some decent gui filters.

Haven't tried ASE, mostly because I really don't like having to use 3rd party browsers.

 

[briach]

I like UnrealGrrl's idea of having preset server keywords, because 75% of the multiplayerbase probably doesn't take part in a centralized community.

Having preset keywords would help people organize their servers into "server rings" and it would promote the utilization of a keyword filter.

In almost every forum I go to that has a less diverse range of gamers than Beyond Unreal, I see the community compiling a list of servers that are run with the settings they like and have the skill range they like to play with. Wouldn't it be so much better if you could just put a keyword on your server like " ***forums" and etc?

TWL, GGL, etc etc etc setting servers.

There are an infinite amount of different types of keywords that could be useful to players and admins. So I don't think their should be any limits on what keywords admins can use.

It would be nice if they had preset keywords however, for the people that aren't involved with a centralized community. Perhaps their could be a bunch of preset keywords for different settings and then there could be an "other" option that allows you to make your own keyword for your server, because Epic can't predict every keyword to cover everything.

Ofcourse you can put utcomp 1v1 or Trial in your server title but you still have to search for them and skim through the other load of "garbage", and it's obvious that players are attracted to specific types of settings, specific types of maplists, specific types of player mindset, and specific types of average skill level. Most players that are that want an environment that specific take part in a centralized community of players, and those players and admins would be able to make up their own "server ring" name and organize their online gaming experience better because of keywords.

 

[Neophoenix]

What if, when you downloaded the servers it scaned for the diferent mutators in each server? Do you think this would be possible? It would at least allow players to see mutators that servers are running with out having to have them installed.