JayHova's Official Bitch about Grenades Thread

[jayhova]

There are still a number of problems with the way grenades are implemented.

1. Fragments behave unrealistically. Just like bullets, grenade fragments stick when they hit a solid object. For instance in comparison to concrete, steel is quite hard, so the fragment of steel will stick in the concrete. About the only surface that steel fragments won't stick into is steel plate. However, If a fragment were to hit steel it would loose most of it's energy. The exception to this would be a ricochet where a fragment would hit a surface at a very shallow angle and skip like a stone on a lake.
   
2. Fragments move too slow. Any fragment that is moving at a speed slow enough to see is too slow to really hurt you. The fragments from an M67 are flat, irregularly shaped pieces of steel. The reason that the M67 has such a small kill radius is because the fragments very quickly loose velocity. At speeds that can be seen, being hit by a fragment would be like being hit with a hand full of coins. I would like to point out that terminal velocity of a coin dropped from a great height is low enough to be non-harmful.
   
3. The other problem is aiming grenades. One of the primary uses for grenades IRL is to clear rooms. Typically the method for doing this is to toss the device through a window or open door. In INF this is all but impossible. There is no way to tell if a grenade will go through an opening or bounce off the frame right back at you, even if you are standing right infront of the window. IRL this would never be a concern. Several of the military types that frequent these boards have said as much.

My suggestions to address these problems are to make the M67 more like the claymore in the non-bouncy fragment way. I'm really tired of getting killed tossing a grenade around a corner moving back behind a barrier only to be hit by fragments that bounced off a wall behind me.

I would also like some method of aiming grenades so that you don't bounce them off an object 3 feet away. The two methods I can think of using are the outstretched hand method used in AA or some sort of "throw path" indicator that would warn the thrower of the grenade that there is an object in the path of his throw. This is something that people naturally know through hand/eye coordination. The best way I can think to simulate this would be with a light that extended from the release point to the aim point like a flashlight or a laser with a short range that only the thrower would see.

 

[Spier]

The answer to everything, apart from the throwing thing:
http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=124547

 

[geogob]

yeah... most of those things where fixed in yurch's mutator.

 

[D.Turtle]

About the aiming thing: I can remember someone suggesting that for the nade one could add the other hand as an aiming help.

 

[Crowze]

Yes, it was suggested, but never implemented .

Play around with the activate attachment/change firing mode (can't remember which) key on the grenades, it might help you a little.

 

[=CreepingShadow=]

2. Fragments move too slow. Any fragment that is moving at a speed slow enough to see is too slow to really hurt you.

I don't know where you got that piece of info from, tracers and bullets can be seen moving at night and I tend to believe they just might hurt if you get hit by one. That said, I know what your saying about the speed, specifically, it just needs a bit more.

The aiming is certainly needed.

 

[spm1138]

Yurches mutie makes it better. We just need a few more servers running it.

For those of you who haven't seen a frag grenade go off on a server running New40mm, there's a bang, a cloud of black smoke and the shrap works like a claymore only in all directions. Looks very cool and doesn't ricochet in the BS fashion the flak frag does.

 

[keihaswarrior]

I agree with Jahova. Yurch's mutie goes a long way toward what is needed.

What we need now are better aiming methods.
1) The left arm could be outstretched and be used as a method of aiming the grenade.

2) There needs to be a way to throw a grenade around a corner or over a ledge that is above you. Currently, the only way to get a nade around a corner is to A) expose yourself to enemy fire B) Bounce it off a wall. You should be able to easily throw a nade around a corner while only exposing your arm for a tenth of a second.

 

[jayhova]

I found the Yurchian mutator after I posted this. I like it for the most part. I really think the black clouds of smoke are a bit much. Composition B is a high explosive and does not generate a great deal of smoke and the smoke it does generate is light grey or white. Yurch's argument that the smoke represents a dust cloud does not really work for me as a great deal of the time the grenades are detonated indoors and on man made surfaces.

 

[Demosthanese]

The smoke does need to be lightened up a bit, as it works far better
than the White smoke grenades. I suppose we'll get the arm in the
next iteration of INF.

 

[keihaswarrior]

I agree about the smoke. It should be more transparent and lighter. yurch said he has grown fond of it though ...

 

[Tiffy]

Yurch knows the smoke is too black and I beleive he will be re-visiting the smoke colour at a later date. Give the guy his dues the way grenades work with his mutator is excellent.

 

[Vega-don]

i think that to help the aim of the grenades, theire should be no free aim for grenades. free aim is the reason why you can't tell exactly if the nade will go in the window or not.

 

[Crowze]

So... you may as well have a crosshair. In fact, having some sort of reticule system that estimates the trajectory of the nades would be quite nifty.

 

[=CreepingShadow=]

I forget which game it was, some of you will remember as it's seemingly mentioned above, yet there was a red transparent line that arched outward from your throwing hand showing your trajectory, and it worked better than anything else while still remaining "realistic" as your mind has a innate sense for where you want the nade to land.

There could even be variables of "a miss" worked in, meaning that the nade wouldn't always have to follow the exact course plotted out by the traj. line, yet more often then not, it would. In other words, no one can always throw a nade y-axis through a window and never miss, yet a 7/10 ratio would suffice, seven being the nade following exactly the line from your throwing arm.

I also agree with the above idea of your left hand acting as a reticule of sorts to determine the course, so perhaps the perfect combination of these ideas could finally be implemented. As usual the question then is, can this be done with the current engine.

If not, then will it be done in the next...

 

[spm1138]

What about if just the nades were tethered to the centre of the screen?

 

[=CreepingShadow=]

Your not always throwing at the exact center of your outward vision.

What I'm saying is a light gray arching (curved) line from hand to target, this would depict the "lob" of the trajectory. This line from aiming hand to the intended target being nearly invisable already, like the lowest visable setting on the HUD, would only be seen by you, no one else. Conversely, this trajectory would show where the lobbed nade should land.

Once the grenade is thrown the line is removed, and you get the extra visual treat to see if it follows the same line you "thought" was coordinated with your aiming hand.

 

[spm1138]

Realistically I would know where I was throwing something.

The guns work OK from the hip because you can practice to the point where you basically know where the bullets are going.

The grenades offer you no such visual cues.

If we have to have a "crosshair" I'd much rather it was invisible than in the form of some sort of reticule.

 

[Derelan]

if you get snow where you live, you can see how difficult it really is to hit a 3'x4' 3rd storey window with a snowball, and approximate the same thing with a grenade.

 

[sir_edmond]

I know that socom and socom 2 both have lines showing the trajectory. ony its a yallow line. and is quite off