I've come to an unsurprising conclusion...

[Zur]

PPS: I'll agree with "intent of the user," but it's still mostly situational/prediction/whatever. Or stupid definitions of spam like "projectiles are spam" as Azura stated.

No, you are bending my words. I definitely define spam as more or less blind shooting. It's not a problem when you are faced with one player but it is a problematic when this is the general trend. As I explained earlier in this thread, the margin for error when attempting to avoid damage/fire is small and the ability required to counter rocket/flak spam is high, rendering alternative weapons near useless in melée situations. This means in FFA that players who are very able will dominate a map while middle tier and lower tier players are more or less on the same level.

If it was Epic's intention to make the game more beginner friendly then they only had partial success in this. What the change has done is actually give more of an advantage to the top tier in that their higher aiming ability+quick reflexes will get them out of even the riskiest of situations while middle tier will have a much lesser chance of survival. I think it also makes top tier players more untouchable, a change I definitely don't like as it's very rewarding pinning one down especially if they're the trash talking type. I'm also wondering what this has done to the learning curve and the skill gap. Has the skill gap been reduced in general or has the bottom two tier been reduced in size with the top tier being oversized ? The learning curve has definitely been reduced but has that been transformed also in that it is difficult to get to higher middle tier or lower top tier ?

I also stated that I'm in between the spammer newbies and the hitscan freaks in that I like fighting up close and personal. So, that is definitely *not* along the lines of the elitist image you've pinned on me. I realize that the objective of FFA DM is to come out on top, but it's also training grounds for TDM players who's objectives are different in that one has to try to give away as less frags as possible. There is nothing wrong with that and it's just a different way of playing. Also, this thread is about the way weapons balance out in FFA DM/TDM, not any other modes.

P.S: I admit that I started the thread as a rant as I was frustrated but I'm more inclined to analyze things and perhaps fix my own shortcomings (thanks to tips from players like -AEnubis-).

 

[KevinRoe327]

You can get unskillful kills with every weapon:
Shield: Camping a portal
Assault: Spamming grenades
Bio: Spamming projectiles
Shock: Spamming combos
Link: Spamming projectiles
Mini: Using it at all
Flak: Spamming shells [blindly over something]
Rockets: Spamming them
Lightning Gun: Child bolts

Join the revolution! Weapons are for fools, CRUSH DAMAGE 4TW!!!

 

[Zur]

There won't be a revolution because the game will stay the way it is. I realize I'm way too late when it comes to spotting out any "flaws" the game might have but it had to be said. I think Epic gave way too much importance to the complaints of the pro community when they were critisizing weapon balance and should have done their own fine-tuning. Of course a game should have a competitive community but that isn't what makes a game live.

UT2004 as it stands is a wonderful game and this is proven by the newcomers it brings in even now. But it should be designed for each and everyone at the drawing board or else there's the risk of losing part of the gaming audience where competition for numbers is tough. Just patching the shortcomings of previous games like UT2003 and UT is not the way to go, originality is, and I hope Epic realize this with their next title.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

Really, the reason I consider mini spm 9 times out of 10 is because of the randomness of the traces. It's mostly determined by luck where those shots will fall and whether or not they will hit your target. Because of that, you only use it as either a finisher or suppressor if you know what you're doing. However, I think it's the randomness that makes it spam, still. That doesn't mean that it's BAD, but the weapon was designed to be spammy. (and yes, I hate the minigun.)

 

[-AEnubis-]

I think Epic gave way too much importance to the complaints of the pro community when they were critisizing weapon balance and should have done their own fine-tuning.

Something else you have to understand (though some people want to believe this is just my opinion) is that in each unreal game Epic balances the weapons according to pings on the average, at the time of release. We are way past "time of release" and pings are on a declining trend. If it seems like weapon balance is leaning towards what "the pro community wants" it's to do, some with that, and some with how mods like UTComp effect weapon balance (again something some people want to think is only "my opinion").

 

[Xaero_UT]

it depends on the skill of the player, while i dont deny that spamming is effective, its a real easy way to make enemies.

e.g clan arena

i was playing a guy that was fairly new, and while i was trying to primary shock and lg him, he lobbed flak, killing me a few times, however i noticed

1) he would just use flak, didnt matter how far away u were
2) the whole match he didnt change

so this stops new players from getting any better, they dont trial each weapon, learn how to counter weapons, just secondary flacked u to hell.

as it was CA, that meant while i was trying to get other players, i would get a flack in the back..

its not right or wrong, but i think its a bit lame

edit- for ffa, at the end, with the scores, i see good players, not just the guy who won, but the kill to death ratio. this may be the player takes out the weaklings, so uve got to check, but seeing a player go whoot i won, with 40 kills, but 50 deaths, makes me laugh

 

[Discord]

1) he would just use flak, didnt matter how far away u were
2) the whole match he didnt change

I love those guys. I usually grab the shock and go camp the flak cannon pickup, just at combo range if possible. Fun times.

 

[1337]

Something else you have to understand (though some people want to believe this is just my opinion) is that in each unreal game Epic balances the weapons according to pings on the average, at the time of release. We are way past "time of release" and pings are on a declining trend. If it seems like weapon balance is leaning towards what "the pro community wants" it's to do, some with that, and some with how mods like UTComp effect weapon balance (again something some people want to think is only "my opinion").

ut2k4 is a hitscan game. People's aim with all weapons lower when the ping gets higher, but the high rof, splash radius and/or spread of some projectile weapons makes up for it. Air rox and direct hits with rockets are a lot harder with a high ping than with a lower ping, so the only reason rockets and flak would be more powerful with higher pings is because people can't aim properly and the splash of projectile weapons makes up for it rather than actually trying to hit someone square on. In a gametype where deaths matter, it becomes a yielding game, because you can't make your shots so you don't take risks. In a game with lower ping you know you can get around someone's shock combos being spammed around a corner and hit them with lightning or flak, but with a high drunken ping you don't know if you can make the shot, so you just spam flak secondary at the corner.

Some form of compensating for ping differences, even if not perfect, is very important for online competitions such as ladders and tournaments. The people that take part in these competitions like public servers with similar settings that they compete with. And these people make up a decent portion of the multiplayer community that play regularly and pay for servers and this is why there are so many servers with these settings.

This is not needed at an event like FragBU, as the newnet is not perfect and we enjoy more intimate games where we can flak and rocket eachother and actually see the flak shards and rockets coming at us instead of getting killed a gazillion miles away with a shockrifle. We also don't like rockets curving mid-flight nor do we like getting fragged after running behind a wall. FragBU is about the aesthetics and the beauty of this game with a competitive attitude.

 

[rhirud]

Agreed. In the next ut; it has to be easier for novices to frag the pros, not vice verca. It's easy for the pros to set up their own locked servers; but new players need to be able to join a game and not be splattered.

 

[Zur]

And all this while still conserving the game as something that is still captivating and where you can spend months refining your knowhow.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

Some form of compensating for ping differences, even if not perfect, is very important for online competitions such as ladders and tournaments. The people that take part in these competitions like public servers with similar settings that they compete with. And these people make up a decent portion of the multiplayer community that play regularly and pay for servers and this is why there are so many servers with these settings.

I just don't understand. If it was done without for so many years, then why is it all of a sudden a necessity?

This is not needed at an event like FragBU, as the newnet is not perfect and we enjoy more intimate games where we can flak and rocket eachother and actually see the flak shards and rockets coming at us instead of getting killed a gazillion miles away with a shockrifle. We also don't like rockets curving mid-flight nor do we like getting fragged after running behind a wall. FragBU is about the aesthetics and the beauty of this game with a competitive attitude.

I agree. No matter what you think of newnet, I just don't see it as at all necessary for a "for fun" event.

 

[B]

Try the experiment yourself : go on a public server with a mix of skills and see how well you score.
Chances are that you'll be frustrated being beaten down by the mindless mob as they swipe you away with chunks of flak or rocket threepacks without even an afterthought as you dodge around them using a less spammy weapon. And it gets worse as your ping goes beyond the 75 mark.

Last night I played my first 3 matches online after my vacation and reinstall, I didn't play UT for 2 months. First match I was 4rd as I came in late,they allready had a lead. 2nd match I went Godlike and won. 3rd match I won too, so no I wasn't that frustated

Is there a way to avoid this ?

I think you have to have a certain degree of natural skill for the game (or FPS games in general) If you don't have this skill you'll never get to be as good as the top guys on the server(s). Then again, practice makes you better too. I've been playing UT since it came out, that has to count for some skill.

UT2004 is way too spam friendly and not really favouring high player counts on a server. Who will get fragged next ? Toss a coin as the spam flies around ... and it might just be you as you're executing a difficult manoeuvre as a player, who doesn't even know how to dodge, runs into the room with the fire button down and cuts down at least three other players before dealing you a nasty blow with a suicide.

The spamming is highly map dependend. I mostly play Deck17 only and on the servers I (used to) play spam is hardly seen. Just make sure you know what you are doing, if you're running around like a headless chicken, you're doing something wrong Be the hunter, not the hunted.

Sorry to say this, but Epic seriously messed something up trying to even the playing field :/ .

And still it's a kickass game :tup:

 

[-AEnubis-]

ut2k4 is a hitscan game.

Wrong. Count the fire modes. In normal DM weapons, it's 2 projectile/melee to 1 hit-scan, all of which were balanced at games release.

so the only reason rockets and flak would be more powerful with higher pings is because people can't aim properly and the splash of projectile weapons makes up for it rather than actually trying to hit someone square on.

Wrong again, reason 2 being at lower pings, your reaction time to dodgeing said projectiles is better. You still can't react to hit-scan, no matter what your ping.

In a gametype where deaths matter, it becomes a yielding game, because you can't make your shots so you don't take risks.

That is a choice, and one that I never make. The game, or nothing about the game forces you to play like that.

 

[1337]

If people had 100% preciseness, hitscan would win hands down, especially in a gametype where moving around the map to points of interest isn't necessary. The game should be balanced as if people had 100% preciseness and great maneuverability.

In ut2k4 with a higher ping and when deaths matter, yielding and not acting aggressive is the way to win over someone similarly skilled, especially in a gametype like TAM, when there is no reason to go into the open or really act aggressively, the only reason to go out in the open is when the ticker is counting down and you have less hp than the other person.

I like direct hits. I don't like indirect hits. I don't like spamming corners to suppress someone from acting aggressively towards me (yes I consider it spam). I don't like people dodging backwards while firing splash at the ground behind them to hinder the aggressor's progress. Right now, projectiles give benefit to the yielding, because various reasons, some being the movement system and the high rof and the nature of the projectiles. Hitscan is more indifferent to yielding than projectiles, it is a skill no one can deny you. If you are good at hitscan you can consistently do well. To use projectiles you have to rely on the other person putting themselves in bad position or not being able to dodge away from the projectiles because of a ping handicap, him/her not expecting the projectiles, him/her not yielding, or him/her having bad movement. An example of projectile shots I admire are hitting someone midair because they didn't yield, or cornering someone into a wall and letting loose a salvo of rockets at them, because they didn't yield or were taken by surprise. It's very rare to take someone by surprise and actually having an awareness of them, unless they have a crappy setup or don't use sound.

Ping difference compensation is important for real online competition, it doesn't matter how long there have been ladders and competitions without it.

 

[T2A`]

I'm going with briach. AEnub's arguments don't hold any water, IMO. Yielding and playing defensively will allow you to kill people easier, regardless of whether or not you do it. If I'm backing away while you're charging and we both have rockets, yours are effectively moving slower and are easier to dodge, while mine are coming at you faster. Odds are you will die.

To say this game is not a hitscan game is ignorant. Especially if TAM is your main gametype. When I play TAM I use nothing but shock and lightning unless the situation unfortunately turns awry. Sure, I could use flak, but I, and most others, choose not to because it is not very effective. It doesn't matter what you could do; it matters what is practiced.

 

[edhe]

I still can't get over how many people seem to think that using projectiles (tactically) is equal to spam - weirdotastic.

 

[-AEnubis-]

Yielding and playing defensively will allow you to kill people easier...

That is where your bold should have been.

Easier, yeah, but it garuntees you nothing. Because it's easier puts you at a one distinct disadvantage. Predictability. I constantly take people who do as you say, who are even in skill to me, and do it because I know exactly where and when they are going to fire and move because of their "yeilding." I don't yeild, I push forward more often then not, with mild interuptions due to loss of LOS, only to wait, waste my opponents ammo, and proceed to my victory. The problem is, you guys won't believe it until you see it because it's a typical attutide, especially for lazy Americans, to do what is easier. So people like me are a vast minority, making it harder for you too see on any kind of regular basis.

Also, I'm saying this isn't a hit-scan game by intent. It wasn't meant to be that way, that is the only area in which assessing how many pojectles vs scans there are, would hold any water.

Saying the game is now dominated by hit-scan is undenyable, due to ease of interface (though this aspect was inherent, and balanced for), and lessened average ping.

If people had 100% preciseness, hitscan would win hands down, especially in a gametype where moving around the map to points of interest isn't necessary. The game should be balanced as if people had 100% preciseness and great maneuverability.

That is simply ludicrous. Of-fuc|<ing-course the "undodgeable" fire would win. If, though, that was done, if weapons were balanced for 100% accuracy, then there would be no hit-scan, due to no way to balance projectiles because of dodgeability. As well, if it were somehow possible to garuntee 100% accuracy with projectiles as well as hit-scan, then it would be 100% dictated by weapon selection to situation. At close ranges, hit for hit, Rox would own LtG by rof and damage, and pulse bolts would wax them both, and mid and close ranges, which would still leave some depth in the game, and not be all bad. All this though is based on a hypothetical contradiction, which doesn't, and won't happen.

This games intent is that all weapons are lethal for what situation they suit, and the point of even playing a game like NW TDM with no weapon stay is how you strategically manuver the entire map and use what weapons you can get accordingly. That game shouldn't center around 2/10 weapons, but it does due to balance effecting variables, that Epic can do little about. Whether that is how you think it should be, or not, the other 8 weapons in this game were not intended to be filler, even if you believe that to be what they have become.

Sounds to me like you'd have more fun just playing "Lightning Arena" or something like that, where the game has much less depth, yet then you'd lose your RTS style resource control aspects you seem to love so much, so it mostly sounds like you're SOL. It may be cool for you now, but I have a feeling you will be inclined to continue playing 2k4, as opposed to moving on when the time comes.

Oh, and a little review...

1) Yielding wins you games. -Opinion
2) Most people win games by yielding. -Fact
3) Hit-scan weapons are dominant in this game. -Opinion
4) In low ping environments, hit-scan weapons are inherently at an advantage in this game. -Fact
5) Epic intended for all weapons to be equally lethal. -Fact
6) Briache need to be more objective³ª. -Opinion