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Ironsights (in BF2)

Discussion in 'General Infiltration Discussion' started by Psychomorph, Jul 11, 2005.

  1. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    I played the BF2 demo, wasn't that amased, but the ironsights really made it.
    It has a frontsight (and bodypart) as 3D objects and the rearsight is a light affected (!) bitmap.

    I personally think that would be an awesome thing for INF.
    Of course it depends on how the sights are implemented in the next INF. When they is that huge freeaim when aiming and small weapons, than it is not possible to implement rearsight bitmaps, but when it has the more true to life aiming with the rearsights close to the eye/screen, with just a tinny bit of freeaim, than this ironsight system would be awesome.

    Especially the red dot sights got my attention. Also the glowing dot (not just a red point) is what I have allready talked about on this forums, just awesome.

    When you look down, the sight gets brighter and looking up to the light source makes the rearsight darker.


    Of course the sights are not all correct in BF2, the rearsight is way to close to the eye making the aperture to huge to alight the frontsight, also the apertures of the M16 and M249 are, as always, wrong (huge), but all those errors can be made right in INF.

    Also the ironsights in BF2 are too big, can be made better in INF too.



    I play BF2 offline just to use the sights and it feels so good. When you move, the sights are bobbing very natural and all gives you the feel of using a real weapon.
    Who said bitmaps are such bad?... At least what BF2 got is much better than huge polygonal and sharp edged 3D rearsights.

    I´m for having this in the next INF, what you think?


    I don't know how they made the bitmap rearsights, but I allready posted ideas in the past, that the rearsight can be actually a 3D plate, fully transparent and the bitmap is just a texture which is affected by light that way.
    The frontsight and the visible upper weapon parts are normal 3D objects (they have to be).

    The attached pic explaines it.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 11, 2005
  2. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    Noticed this in the last pre-demo-video that was showing off the iron sights already.
    The nice thing they do is that they can place the 'camera' at any point they want and that the 3D weapon model itself can clip fully into your screen without the need to care for.... cause a bitmap texture is painted on top of it all directly on the HUD.
    This way they actually place the camera in front of the 3D models backpart of the ironsights and can even 'tilt' the weapon model a bit to let the front pin/iron sights parts look as good as possible.
    This system combined with a slight free aim where the back texture is actually moving very slightly/gently too would be the thing to do, yes.

    Beppo
     
  3. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    When they clip the 3D weapon model (you mean the one that is at the right side usually?), what is about the 3D rearsight? Or do they place the camera slightly over the 3D rearsight, so the bitmap has free space?
    I ask this due to the old case I have spoken about some time ago, where the aperture of the 3D M16 sight is realistically small, while the bitmap have to have a larger aperture (due to proximity). so you couldn't place the bitmap over the 3D rearsight if you would like to make it realistic/right/correct/good.

    The slight freaim you speak about that can affect the bitmap is exactly what I thought about too.

    By the way, how does it work that the bitmap is affected by light? In BF2 it seems to me as a simple system, where looking up the bitmap gets darker and looking down it gets brighter. This system still creates a better illusion than a 3D rearsight, but is they more possible, to make it (the illusion) even more intensive? That would be awesome.


    Finally the issue is how to get very nice and correct rearsight bitmaps, that can't be just photoshop miracles, but photos of the real weapons. But I think you have people, or know people (+ the community) that own weapons, or know how to get access to them. Cuz such a system needs high quality and real photos.

    Anyway, I hope you can/will make it, cuz this will be the most intensive way and the best illusion to simulate sight aiming.
    The only problem I have with bitmaps, is, that the sight fills out the whole screen, while I personally think the rearsights (M16 for example) have to be not that huge as in BF2, or AA:O to simulate a better human fov when aiming. Therefore the rearsight bitmaps need to show more of the weapon backpart (that under the actual rearsight), but that won'T break the illusion if done right.


    [​IMG]The next issue that I really dislike in both BF2 and AA:O are the AK sight, while in BF2 the bitmap is superb, the size is overkill.
    Since the AK rearsight is much more at the front than other weapons, I would find it not to bad keeping the AK rearsight 3D, especially cuz it will be affected in movement by the freeaim much more than for example the M16 rearsight.
    OR, you show more of the AK rear (upper) weapon parts (in the bitmap), then you need to make a 'blurryness fade in' in the bitmap, where the lower (closer) body part is more distorted, while the more distant AK rearsight is less distorted (but still a bit).


    Sorry if I tell to much, but I have thought about all that, since the AK sights are a bit different than the typical 'close to eye rerarsights'. Pistols of course have to stay fully 3D.


    As said, you have to make it, cuz such a system will kick ass.
     
  4. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    Yepp, the 3D model that is lowered at the right part of the screen...

    Well they place the camera slightly in front of the backpart of the MP5 ironsights in the pre-demo-video... so I guess they do this for all weapons. In standard gameplay you cannot actually see it, but the pre-demo-video was 'low-fps' enough so that you were able to look at it frame by frame and you actually saw how the texture was painted on the screen starting with only a half texture at the bottom and then going to the full texture on the next frame. Before you were able to see how close the front sights moved to the players camera view and that the back part of the ironsights was not even in view anymore.

    The bigger textures make sense due to them covering everything you do not want to let the player see... clipped 3D model parts or where the camera is actually placed. They just put the two things together as they think it would be ok looking and giving the most 'realistic' look/touch for a gamer.

    A 'real' photo taken from the exact position where your eye normally would be placed behind the iron sights of a weapon would be the thing to use. Then this photo can be made an ingame texture and placed at the correct spot too. Only problem you will face then is that on a screen a 3D world is always 'stretched' into the screen way more than objects in the real world would look like due to the FOV differences. So you normally compensate this a bit by moving the front and back sights closer together than they actually are. This then results in a view that comes very close to the real thing ...
     
  5. Nukeproof

    Nukeproof n1

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    Sounds like you are getting started Beppo :)
     
  6. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    Yeah, 'The Beppo' is back :D

    Thx for info Beppo, where you got the pre demo video?

    But slightly smaller sight if possible (or as possible) would be good. By the way, did you noticed how comfortable and good it is to use those (bigger) sights? This is comfort to me in comparison to INF.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2005
  7. zeep

    zeep :(

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    Wow you got Beppo to respond. ;)
    Nice thread btw. I'll try to download the BF2 demo sometime this month and see for myself how the sights look.
     
  8. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    What? Tell me again why having over half of my screen blocked is 'comfortable'?
     
  9. cracwhore

    cracwhore I'm a video game review site...

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    I take it you've never held or fired an assault rifle?

    BF2's sights are a lot closer to the real thing (in terms of distance), than say: holding the weapon so that the rear sight is a foot from your eye - stock rested against your chin (INF).

    While it may not be convenient to the average gamer, it is more realistic. So in regards to this game, the issue of it being 'comfortable' is (or should be) irrelevant.

    I think the updated 2.9 FAMAS was a step in the right direction, and I hope that the next project will have a more realistic sight setup (where you can actually adjust the aperture for different ranges, etc.).
     
  10. Lethal Dosage

    Lethal Dosage Serial Rapis...uh, Thread Killer

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    Isn't Battlefield 2 released over there (america, UK, etc.) yet?

    Its been out in Australia for a while, and the game is really worth it! Especially compared to Battlefield: Vietnam and Battlefield 1942.

    Gameplay is much better, and the iron sights are a welcome feature that i really didn't expect. Go the smarter AI aswell, if only the INF bots were as team orientated.

    A bad thing though is that the Defibrilators that the medic has are used to bring back dead friendly soldiers, when they are actually used to stabilise a patients heart rate. Plus they hurt a bitch after you have had one used on you! :lol:
     
  11. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    I have. The foward assist pawl (or whatever that's supposed to be called) is visible to me when I'm aiming an M16/AR15. Then again, I don't crowd the sight like some people apparently do.

    There isn't much consistancy in inf's weapons or in BF2's, as the BF2 guys apparently have NO idea how a diopter sight is supposed to look. (and they don't even bother with the shotguns) Close camera artwork is quite difficult.

    Irrelevant to what? Sights on weapons are used for SIGHTING. They are utilities and should therefore be efficient at thier purpose. In 2.9, the sight picture basically matters more than the actual handling of the weapon. (see: mod team's AK's ease of use) This is not just a minor concern. It's entirely relevant when the FAMAS becomes exceptionally difficult to use for most players, despite it's otherwise fairly nice statistics in-game. Some weapons are closer than others, I realize, but I'm not a fan of jamming all of the rear sights squarely into the player's eye just for the hell of it. Don't overdo it, especially considering how much weapons like the FAMAS seem to suffer.

    Of course, none of this has anything to do with the fact that average gamer Psychomorph somehow finds it comfortable.

    The semitransparency of the BF models is the only thing that makes them more 'comfortable' to me (and perhaps the longer engagement ranges), which I think is an excellent indication that we should be looking into two eye shooting abilities.
     
  12. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    If you read my previous posts, you will notice, that the huge sights (aswell the wrong apertures) are my 'single' compliants about the BF2 sights.

    I don't speak about BF2 like it has superb sights, I rather refer to what awesome things would be possible in INF, cuz SS wil make it 100%ly 100% better.

    What I find about the BF2 sights so comfortable? That the frontpin actually has not just a width of a pixel and that you have a bit space inside the diopter aperture (as it meant to be), which is just comfort to aim with, in comparison to INF.

    Same as the original 2.9 Famas sight is comfortable to aim with (speaking only about the sight aiming, not the whole handling which is problematic in comparison with other INF weapons).


    Exactly my thought. I loved aiming the FAMAS with that bigger sights, and to be honest, the size of this sight was exactly how I would like it to be (means slightly smaller than BF2 sights, but still big enought to aim comfortly).
    Of course (as was discussed before) the whole handling of this FAMAS, in comparison to other INF weapons, was problematic and didn't matched the system.
    To use big sights, the system have to be different (shouldered, probably ability to aim binocular and so on). But that is allready known I think.


    Hmm, I play the demo on low settings, maybe thats why I didn't noticed any semitransparency? What semitransparency?

    Just IMO, but just a semitransparent rearsight to simulate binocular aiming would be not very good.

    What do you mean with that?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2005
  13. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    The 'blurring'. The smaller hard outline makes it easier to keep track of targets. It's far too easy to otherwise lose someone close up if the target suddenly switches directions or goes prone.
     
  14. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    just for the record... am getting not a single subscription email for a month or even longer now it seems...

    well I guess all of ya know the reason for INFs weapons being placed a bit too far away from your eye... the 3D model clipping. I wonder why I never used a texture for the backpart of the ironsights... I guess at the time I was thinking about such a feature I had not much experience within PhotoShop/PaintShop and so never tried it out in the end... that was in the very early INF development stages... and later the 3D model stuff was our standard so to speak.
    Anyway... a mix of 3D model and HUD texture is the way to go imo, cause you will get the blur-effect, the correct distance to the back part of the sights and clipping of 3D models is no real problem anymore.
     
  15. Turin_Turambar

    Turin_Turambar Pls don´t shoot to the Asha´man

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    Well Beppo, prove it with a Inf 3.0 screenshot! :D :D
     
  16. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    @yurch:
    Ah you mean the blurryness, but that doesn't really create more view, but you see, that is one pro point for bitmaps kinda.
    I don't mean all this is so perfect, but it is a seriously good option at all.

    @Beppo:
    Sad that you (devs) didn't used the bitmap system earlier, but ok.

    Nice :) :tup:
    Is it just your opinion, or something the team decided to go for? (If I´m not asking to much...)

    Beppo, I don't know if you noticed, but some time ago I had a discussion, mostly with yurch, in the development forum and I came up with a 'weird' idea for binocular aiming and so. You could check it out if you want and have enough time, lol.
    The attached pic is the short explanation, if you want, ignore the lowready thing, I primary refer to the binocular/monocular thing.
    The thread explains why I suggest the 1st person binocular aim as it is in the picture. It really starts with post #37.

    Agreed :D :D
     

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    Last edited: Jul 22, 2005
  17. Bushwack

    Bushwack Avenged Sevenfold...

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    Ive read on the BF2 boards there is a team working on a realism mod for it already, i hope its removing some of the conefire, nothing like emptying 2 magazines of 762 into your bunny hopping target and still not scoring a kill. There is potential in BF2, if its modded., Heres hoping.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2005
  18. cracwhore

    cracwhore I'm a video game review site...

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    Now, only if somebody could mod some optimization for it...
     
  19. MightyTuX[JgKdo]

    MightyTuX[JgKdo] New Member

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    First version of the Realism Mod for BF2 is released.

    Didnt test it by myself yet.

    You can grep it here: http://www.gamespy.de/download.php?id=8665
    The official homepage of this project is this one: http://tanelorn.sublimedev.com/
    They have increased Bullet damage, made sniping while standing harder, adjust the raf of the AK models and tweaked some other things too.

    DeLaMorte
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2005
  20. Cunubelin

    Cunubelin Absens haeres non erit (Soccerdad)

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    Wether Project Reality will actually live up to it's name or not remains to be seen.
    We should get a little taste of it soon as they will release a 'minimod' probably before the end of the month.
    Some features of the minimod:
    removed crosshairs
    Increased damage for some weapons
    and a bunch more.
     

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