Infiltration Review by former US Army Infantry Soldier *long*

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CoffeyCan

Real Maps Coordinator
Zefran, you bring a breath of fresh air to the community. Your background and knowledge is good to see, and expressed in a mature manner. Kudos to you.

As for the Delta Force as shooters, if anyone reads Black Hawk Down, there is a section where they discuss a wounded delta force member propping his wounded leg up on the dash, driving and shooting (and hitting targets) simultaneously. Its verified by witnesses, so its not some 'war story' that you see published in many of the books today. Pretty amazing. I would have loved to see the demo's you witnessed.

CC
 

zefran

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Originally posted by CoffeyCan
Zefran, you bring a breath of fresh air to the community. Your background and knowledge is good to see, and expressed in a mature manner. Kudos to you.

As for the Delta Force as shooters, if anyone reads Black Hawk Down, there is a section where they discuss a wounded delta force member propping his wounded leg up on the dash, driving and shooting (and hitting targets) simultaneously. Its verified by witnesses, so its not some 'war story' that you see published in many of the books today. Pretty amazing. I would have loved to see the demo's you witnessed.

CC

So, you want to talk about Heros huh? Hell ya. How about the Delta guy in panama that was sitting on the side of a little bird as they were taking off from rescuing a guy in a prison right before we attacked with force. The helo got shot down, the delta guy jumps on the guy they are trying to save so as to protect him and gets hit in the head with a spinning rotorblade. He was wearing a helmet of course... brushes it off like it was nothing, and they all fought in place until more forces cound arrive.

Then there are the two delta operatives.. Shugart and gordon (I dont think that is spelled right) They got Post Humus CMOH kicking ass and taking names while saving a pilot, but two against 200 is not that great odds. To bad those two killed more than 60.


Then there is the pilot in the 160th who was a little bird pilot. He was out of rockets and bullets for his bird, but instead of returning to base and leaving the men unsupported for a few minutes, he flys his helicopter down between some building, locks the collective so as to hover.. grabs the rifle he has on board and steps on on the copter skid, and while flying one handed, starts shooting at the enemy. This is confirmed and no bull****. Talk about a bad ass.


-Jason
 

zefran

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I served at the United Nations Command Security Battalion- Joint Security Area on the DMZ in Korea for 1 1/2 years, and at 2-35th Infantry Battalion in Hawaii for 3 years.

I sure did love hawaii, and I sure as hell am moving back as soon as I finish school.

-Jason
 

CoffeyCan

Real Maps Coordinator
Yeah the Kurt Mewes (sp) rescue from Panama was an amazing feat, when you hear Mewes tell the story about them getting him out of prison in Panama and the rather harrowing helicopter ride, you cant help but feel a sense of awe for how hard those guys work, and for how good their skills are.
CC
 

The_Fur

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Just a comment on that... is it heroical or was it simply stupid. I know nothing of the circumstances but when faced with such overwheliming odds isn't it better to withdraw (note NOT retreat).
after all:

"He who runs and gets away, lives to fight another day".

You are of no use to your country or to anybody else dead.
 

zefran

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A little background on the situation in somolia. A helocopter crashed during the attack. The pilots were woulded, and two delta Operator, Shugart and Gordon, were above in a Helo. They could see Somolians moving in on the Helos position. The instructed the pilot to get them on the ground. After a few aborted attempts, they were finally able to reach the ground and get to the Helo. They took up defensive positions and proceeded to kill all those who tried to get close. One of them kept firing until he was killed. The other, ran out of rounds, went back to the chopper, found 5 more rounds, give his pitol to the pilot, told him "Good luck" and went back to the fighting. He was later shot and killed. Both took numerous rounds before they were killed. These two individuals helps stave off the attack on the Helo until the Rangers were able to get to the downed helo and rescue the Pilots. If it had not been for the actions of these two men and their sacrifice for their fellow commrads, those pilots and crew would have been killed. Instead, they lived.

I am absolutly humbled everytime I think of these two men and what they did. But, unless you could view the situation from their eyes, and have even a simple understanding of what they are thinking about, you can't really understand what they did and might feel their act foolish. I guess you can't really understand unless you have known the commradirie(sp) you feel with those you serve with, expecially if you serve in the Infantry. No man fights a war in the trenches for his country, he fights it to help keep the men to his left and right alive. Most people will not understand this act of selflessness and sacrifice because they do not know the meaning of such words.

-Jason
 

The_Fur

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I can't say i know what you mean but i do understand what you are trying to say.

However I as a soldier wannabee (and hopefully an actual soldier in future) have kind of changed my mind about why people want to be soldiers. From speaking whith soldiers and reading about war and such i've changed my mind from the usual valiantly dying in battle menthality as seen in most fresh blood to what is the point of doing so.
While it may be concidered selfish what is the point if you die in battle even for somebody else, what good does it do you? Also does not mourning for those lost make for a bigger emotional experience then simply no longer being there anymore. Drinking to martyrs is better then being one. Maybe you will be praised after your death but you are no longer around to experience that. While it may be nice in theory and in movies, IRL it seems highly impractical to me.
Don't get me wrong i'm not saying stuff those guys as long as I live. I would try so but in the back of my mind i would most certainly think it madness.
 

zefran

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No offense to you, but that is the thinking of really, all civilians, because, as a civilian, you can, and will never grow a bond with people as strong as you would in the Infantry. For those not in a Combat job, you won't grow that bond either. But amongst the fighting men, a bond grows that is greater than any in the world. I have GREAT parents. My mom and dad were great to me and taught me alot, but my bond with my parents was not as close as it was with my team, squad a platoon. Going into the Infantry, you will learn things about yourself, and about life, that you could never know otherwise. It is not something you can learn anywhere else. That is the shame of it, because most people will never know it. Although you have friends when you grow up, you, number one, will always think about yourself, and without the experience of an Infantry style job, be it Artillery, Infantry, Combat engineer, or some sort of Special forces, you will be missing out on some of life's greatest joys and wonders. You will experience hardships you did not think a human could endure, but you will endure them, you will succeed in your task, and those you worked with to succeed (You wont succeed alone), you will grow a bond with them that goes deeper than life its self. In combat, you won't go in worrying about your left and right, because you KNOW your buddy will be there. To have sheer, complete, utter, unbreakable trust in an individual, and to know they have that trust in you, is what makes you an effective combat team, and is one of the unlisted wonders of the world.

Some examples: (you gotta have examples and alot of them have to do with fighting, but hey, thats what we did for a living)

I was in a club, and this guy starting giving me ****. Before I could even stand up for myself, the 7 individuals I was with (who I worked with directly, or atleast we were in the same company) all stood up around me and started to pound that guy. (You may think fighting is bad, but when you train to fight everyday, all day, all year for years, you become really good at it, and it tends to be your first reaction) Now, they didn't kick his ass to0 bad, but I can tell you, that guy's buddies(4 of them) were just sitting there looking at him and not helping. Can you say your friends would have acted on your behalf, or would they have stood there and watched you get a beat down. Honestly, what would you do if your guys were out numbers and your friend was getting beat down?

As a manager, would you ever ask someone to do something you would not or could not do? Is that right? Do you have a right to tell someone to do something you yourself could not do? I would say no.

On the BigIsland, playing opfor for the Hawaii National Guard. The hawaiins got a little rough in combat and attacked some people physically. We were outnumbered and got a good beatdown(We laid some smack down too, but, damn, hawaiins are some big dudes) but, we stuck together as a team and got a beatdown together. Odds against us, we won out in the end, because we staid together. Would that happen in Normal life? no.

In Korea, a guy is beating up his girlfriend. Would you look the other way, or go tell him to knock it off? Be honest with yourself. What if He was bigger than you? Alot bigger. I told him to knock that crap off. When we started to scrap, people I worked with, people in my unit I didn't even know, because someone I did work with saw it happening and the shout went out that someone from our unit was in a fight. People were coming out of the woodworks to help me whip that guy, cause he was big, I needed help. In a world of Individuals, does anyone come to the aid of another? Have you ever seen a fight, and just looked the other way, or cheered them on, but didnt jump in to help them (if they were your friend, or just an aquantence)? I bet lots of people have done just that, nothing.


Now, for after your out of the military, what happens? The men and women of the Armed forces stick together in and out of the military. Just being a veteran can help you in so many ways. You learn things, life skills, nobody else has unless they have served too. You will find life to be so easy, when before, it seemed SO hard. What people thing to be hardships, you look at as just a small obstical that is simple to cross. You will have more confidence than you would ever have if you didn't serve.

As a teenager growing up, my parents helped me with everything. I hated them anyway. Ithought they were evil.. I thought highschool was not fair and to hard. I was a big god damn *****. I had low self esteem and I was weak. I couldnt stick up for myself, and I had no idea what I was going to do with my life. After serving almost 5 years in the Infantry, I am a COMPLETELY new person. Even if I was happy with my life before I went in, I can say I would still be better off than before.


I have tried my best to explain what military service is like, but it is up to an individual to decide if this is a task they can handle, or if they are destined to be second best at everything for the rest of their lives because there will be people out there that keep going when you quit because you have not learned the discipline and courage to face the task at hand, and finish it.(damn, what a run on sentance that is, oh well)


-Jason
 

zefran

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Hell no. Recruiters will lie to your face and do what ever they can to get you to join. Plus, that really is a hard job with really long hours. Screw that. I just speak the truth. You take what you want from it.


-Jason
 

Psycrow

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My 2 Cents

I served a few years with the 82nd Airborne at Ft Bragg, NC as an Infantry soldier. I carried the M249 SAW the M60 "PIG" , the 240 , qualified on the "Dragon" and fired live AT4s , I even did some time as a radio operator with the "SINGARS" radio for my platoon. Not bragging just establishing my credentials.

I liked most of the stuff I've read here however I felt compelled to add my opinion to a couple of points.

The accuracy of data offered by Zefran on the m203 is dead on, anybody who has ever thrown a m67 or fired a m203 will agree to the power that these weapons dish out. Very few movies and games do them justice.

The 240 was just being fazed in when I finished my enlistment, it is in deed a superior weapon to the M60 a little heavier though. It really shares little with the SAW.

A “PLF” isn’t going to do **** for you from a free drop from 8 ft carrying a combat load (aprox. 50 to 100 lbs.) its going to hurt!!

There is no way you can be an accurate shot on a dead run, even a brisk walk is difficult and that is with a open site, Scope? FROGET IT! You would bang the crap out of your cheek bone and just think of the terrain you would be moving over, why do you think they still issue Bayonets!

Zefran, although I forged some life long bonds in my time with the 82nd I found that too many of my “friends” would screw you over for a promotion, and people would stick at times to “Rank” beyond all sense when working together would be much better for the whole. The ARMY is still very much Big Boys club, which is probably one reason I didn’t reup. Having said that, I don’t for a moment regret enlisting, I believe I’m a better man for it and I learned things about myself and life that some people never learn. However a word to the young here who maybe thinking of enlisting US or CAN (I’m a Canadian too) Zefran spoke true, Enlistment NCOs will lie through their teeth to push you into an MOS (job) they need recruits for (usually Infantry). Make them give you Collage money and enlistment bonuses. And if you really want to be Infantry go Airborne, nobody likes a “LEG”

Sorry Zefran but you had that coming after the PVT comment. :)

Great MOD! Keep up the good work
 

zefran

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Who the hell you calling a leg? Beat your face! ;-)

Oh, and a PLF will keep you from breaking your legs. I never said it wasnt going to hurt like a mofo. PLFs almost always hurt. Landing on concrete, well, that will always always hurt, unless your dropping like 1 ft a sec.


"I DON"T GIVE A DAMN IF YOU WERE FALLING 2" A SECOND! YOU BETTER DO A GOD DAMN PLF AIRBORNE!"


"AIRBORNE! THIS DZ IS 1000 METERS BY 2000 METERS! HOW THE HELL DID YOU LAND ON MY GOD DAMN TRUCK!"


-Jason
 

Plekto

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I've been reading and while I didn't sign up, some of my friends did, so I hear lots of stories :)

As far as accuracy goes - yes, Virginia, there are people out there who are such badass that they can hit you fifteen ways before you even know they are there. It isn't the weapons that are innacurate to be sure. (eg: a typical .50 cal round is accurate to 6-8 inches at over a mile. While this may not sound great, put a paper plate on your chest - comfy fit, no?)

Ideas:

- First off, add in a skill system. We need classes BADLY. There is no chance that someone is going to be skilled with every single weapon the game, so make different types.

An optimal approach would be to have a point-allocation system. You have say 50 points and they go into 8 or 10 skills. You might have good speed or good aiming or be a total badass with demolitions or heavy weapons or...
(something like 10 points max each skill)

Everyone of course has 2-3 points in every skill, since they do train you to use just about everything. You just aren't going to be really
acurate with that thing.

A hybrid apporach would be even better. You have classes and some limited flexibility to assign points so for instance, your sniper isn't a total dumbass with that grenade launcher(at least on paper - we know differently). He would still have 2-3 points in most skills, of course - and higher in others. You just would have say 10 points to allocate.

- impliment some sort of system like CS has, where you move SLOWLY when using a scope.

- Ballistics for everything would also make a huge improvement. I tire of this "aim and wherever the crosshair is, it is dead on" crap that I see in all of these games.

I have spent many years shooting various guns myself and the thing is aligned to fire accurately at ONE range. Closer or farther out, it requires you to make an educated guess and manual adjustment.(rangefinders help lots)

Most serious guns have elevation marks on the crossairs(or a nice flip-up type if you have iron sights) to give you a idea of how to adjust. Sniping at someone should take time and require you to adjust for range.(Wind as well)

Close-in, your accuracy is actually likely to be WORSE because a 1-2 inch movement while jogging makes the end the barrel move a LOT. I have seen where people unload at each other at close range and completely miss. Now, true, this is Special Forces we are supposed to be playing, but you just don't bring a sniper-rifle to a close-range fight. Sniping at under 50ft? Too much movement and your point of impact is not even IN your view.

Notable exception - low-power scopes mounted at the end of the barrel. Not usually done, but if you have ever used one, you'll love it. They allow you to get an accurate shot and still have the kind of speed you get out of iron sights.

Still no substitute for a good handgun at close-range.

I play a lot of paintball as well. We also allow use of most banned(from courses) types, like blowguns and so on. Expect to be hit easily at well over 50yds. You should see my 6-shot sniper-blowgun - heh. All 5 lbs of it. Paintball was never this much fun... Okay - so it is 6 pvc pipes with three wooden spacers in the middle to seperate them by about 2 inches from the center. Infuriates the hell out of people how fast I can fire it off and reload. 6-inch accuracy at 200ft. >;)

- Add in a laser for most other weapons and a LOT more trouble aiming while moving unless very skilled. Make them plainly visible to the enemy at a HUGE distance compared to what you can see with the dot. Also they are nearly useless in daylight.
(ie: take a flashlight out to a park - how far can you see with it and how far away can your friend see you using it?)

- Many more dark areas. IR should be a all but required when going into a dark and smoke-filled building.(time to turn on the laser as well, lest you shoot your own guys)

- Make it so you don't die - you are just too wounded to fight. Less dramatic, but more realistic. Save dead and gone for being hit with explosives(grenade in your chest, rocket, whatnot) and simmilar gruesomeness. Sure, headsots and such are lethal, but you people don't drop dead 5 seconds later - it usually takes them a while to actually die.

More realistic would be to have 2 types of damage - lethal and non-lethal. You can be out of the game for either, but lethal has the added problem of getting worse(bleeding). Maybe have a medic option/first-aid pack and it takes you literally 30 seconds doing nothing else to stop the bleeding - not likely to be enough time, but hey, it's there.

- WAY more damage from grenades. Scare the crap out of people. Make friendly-fire HURT. Try playing CS sometime where FF is on - notice how much less people run amok and how they don't throw grenades around? Your teammates will shoot the hell out of you if you open up on them.

You actually take a split second to verify that the person in front of you is the enemy. Then it is all about reflexes. :)

- To be honest, in RL, grenade-launchers *are* badass. Make the maps have much more hard cover. They will run out and especially so if they only are useable at 50-100ft+ With FF on, there is no way that they would dare shoot it with their buddies nearby - only to soften you up or to lob into a window or room.
 

poaw

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First off, add in a skill system. We need classes BADLY. There is no chance that someone is going to be skilled with every single weapon the game, so make different types.
I like the way it is already. Some people are more skilled with certain weapons than others, and some people are more generalist. I have yet to see someone who is skilled in all the weapons.

- impliment some sort of system like CS has, where you move SLOWLY when using a scope.
I agree that something has to be down about scope running.

- Ballistics for everything would also make a huge improvement. I tire of this "aim and wherever the crosshair is, it is dead on" crap that I see in all of these games.
Bullet drop is already modelled.

- Add in a laser for most other weapons and a LOT more trouble aiming while moving unless very skilled. Make them plainly visible to the enemy at a HUGE distance compared to what you can see with the dot. Also they are nearly useless in daylight.
(ie: take a flashlight out to a park - how far can you see with it and how far away can your friend see you using it?)
I think the balance between weapon attachments is fine as is. There are differences between a flashlight and a LAM that that make such comparsions irrelevent.

- WAY more damage from grenades. Scare the crap out of people. Make friendly-fire HURT. Try playing CS sometime where FF is on - notice how much less people run amok and how they don't throw grenades around? Your teammates will shoot the hell out of you if you open up on them.

I agree. The shrapnel from fragmentation grenades should be greater in number and density.