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How long before some innovation/inspiration?

Discussion in 'Recruitment' started by Sir_Brizz, Jun 23, 2004.

  1. Sir_Brizz

    Sir_Brizz Administrator Staff Member

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    All I ever see in here anymore it seems like is CS/Red Orchestra/America's Army clones. When is someone going to use a little creativity, a little innovation, and definitely some inspiration instead of just copying/mimicking what others have done already (and likely better)?

    The reason I ask this is because I look at popular games (back when innovation was popular) like Half-Life and Unreal, and they are SOOOO far from the mold that they deserved popularity. I would like to see some Ancient Japanese mod (i.e. The Opera) or super futurisitc (i.e. as based on Ender's Game/Foundation series'). It seems like there is very little creativity anymore...just people wanting the same thing they have always had on a different engine.

    OK. Rant off, with all that said I would like to add that there have been a FEW creative mods released.

    Piddly's Chance (while not very well executed, at least it's something new)
    Atlantis (very well executed, could have been a smidge better but it's an alpha)
    Alien Swarm (never been fully executed before, very original)

    Why can't people use these mods as examples and make something fun and new? yikes. Also, the above is not necessarily a complete list. That is out of those I have tried.
     
  2. elmuerte

    elmuerte Master of Science

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    Being original these days game genre wise is very diffifcult. But you can add original elements to a genre that makes it very original.

    Alien swarm isn't really original, you just haven't seen much games based on that concept. Alien swarm is in fact based on Alien Breed by Team 17: http://www.team17.com/softography.html

    I'm wokring on a mod based on Mario Kart, not very original either, but it is some what original for the Unreal community. I don't expect it to get a large piece of the community playing it.

    The fact is, people want to play the same thing over and over again (apperently). That would explain half life/cs, and all the mods that look like them.
     
  3. Sir_Brizz

    Sir_Brizz Administrator Staff Member

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    I guess... I'm not so worried about it in terms of genre, but in terms of creativity. If you look at the movie industry, you would see probably at the most two movies released based on similar themes and then that theme goes dormant for several years until it is brought out again in another form, using a little more creativity than the last time, and definitely alot of creative license.

    This doesn't happen in the game industry for some reason. It seems like every iteration of games that are released contains several of the EXACT SAME game that was released in the previous iteration. Specifically, I'm thinking of Call of Duty vs. Medal of Honor. CoD had some innovation, but it was 90% Medal of Honor. It seems like that is exactly what is happening in the mod community, take for example mods like Frag Ops, Defense Alliance, Tactical Ops, and Strike Force (now a full game? wtf...). They are all 90% counter-strike. I've seen very little that I think is worthwhile in terms of innovation.

    Alien Swarm was good because the idea (as far as I have seen) has never been fully executed. It reminds me a bit of XCom (though fairly far removed) but I also don't think XCom was ever done right (turn based action isn't action, it's strategy). It was explored first in Unloaded, however Unloaded was never finished (sadly, it had TONS of potential). I call it original because I have yet to see a similar style of game built on Unreal or any other engine. At the link you provided, Alien Breed seems alot like a game I played on my Atari ST, but I can't recall the name. It was Alien something... Still, I am glad to see some innovation on the Alien Swarm team's part.

    I've also looked into your Mario Kart-type mod. You are still innovating, although I would guess somewhere between 25-50% of your mod comes from ideas used in Mario Kart, that's fine. Your other 50-75% is where you innovate, make it better, make it different. It's definitely a mod that I personally am looking forward to.

    I promptly removed all CS clones and Troopers from my computer. I left Red Orchestra, because, while it isn't completely original, it's more fun than CoD (and I bought that game for it's multiplayer) and it's a heck of a lot more fun than Medal of Honor. I think that if the Red Orchestra team were to make a single player portion of their mod, it would be a leading competitor for both of those well-known franchises because it did alot of stuff differently, and it's alot more fun, IMO.

    Those are the things I'd like to see, innovative games can be baased on old ideas, but the problem is that they generally aren't. Plus, when you base your game on an already accomplished idea, your creativity and originality get tossed out the window. It forces you to compete with what the original has done better and try to improve on someone else's idea. (I'm thinking specifically of CS clones in this statement)
     
  4. BinarySystem

    BinarySystem Banned

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    I'd like to think that I'm doing something original. Unfortunately, the more original it is, the more time consuming it is going to be. (by alot) No idea on a release date yet because I keep getting ideas about "hey, I can save performance and make it more flexible if I just make this one teeny major rewrite.." ;)
     
  5. Captain Kewl

    Captain Kewl I know kewl.

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    Alien Syndrome?
     
  6. Sir_Brizz

    Sir_Brizz Administrator Staff Member

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    YES!!!!!! That game RULED!!!!! :D

    Seriously I spent hours on that game, is it available on any abandonware sites?
     
  7. Prophet_Dark

    Prophet_Dark New Member

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    I want to see GLOOM for UT2K4 now there was an incredibly unique and innovative mod. Even if it was for Q2 way back in the day.
     
  8. Psyk

    Psyk New Member

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    It also seems hard to recruit people for more innovative mods.
     
  9. junodark2k

    junodark2k New Member

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    How about a Logan's Run mod? :Poop:

    Actually, a mutator based on that might not be too bad. Run from _ people for _ amount of time with _ weapons. Oh, wait, that's called getting murdered on an experienced server. :lol:
     
  10. Sir_Brizz

    Sir_Brizz Administrator Staff Member

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    Yah. It's because most people with experience want to make money, and the only experience they have with mods making money are Counter-Strike and TacOps. Game and clone. Game and clone. Game and clone.
     
  11. Caravaggio

    Caravaggio Custom User Text goes here.

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    Not sure what to say except have hope. The MSUC has had some pretty good effects on the mod scene (though I fear mods might be a little more sparse once it's through, yes?) and hopefully the people who have bothered to learn something about the engine will keep their skills sharp.

    I think a good mod is like a bad song, it needs a hook. I for one wouldn't mind all these realism mods if they each had something to differate themselves from eachother. For instance, Atlantis, at it's core it's really just a realism mod with aliens, Lawdogs looks to be DM in the old west, RO is realsim x10, etc. I had an idea, design doc, story and all for a realism mod that would've had ironsights, physical ballistics and all that, except it was set in the year 3000 with advanced tech. I thought it would've been an okay idea for a mod, I just never said anything to anyone because I'm still learning how to make models.

    So personally it's not the genre or mechanics, it's the uniqueness.
    Like barney doom was still just doom, but it was fun cause I could kill barney. :p
     
  12. elmuerte

    elmuerte Master of Science

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    I don't think the MSUC had much goot effects on the mod scene. A lot of people started creating mods to win money.
     
  13. [SAS]Solid Snake

    [SAS]Solid Snake New Member

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    Which isn't the right reason...
     
  14. Sir_Brizz

    Sir_Brizz Administrator Staff Member

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    Okay, since you mentioned Atlantis, let's look at it.

    The idea for Atlantis was created back in UT2003 (whether MSUC had started or been announced I don't know). However, I read their gameplay doc and stuff and made up my own mind about how the gameplay should work out. When I played their Alpha, it was a little off from what I was thinking, but it was close enough.

    The reason I like games like Atlantis and Red Orchestra (Atlantis is original, the weapons are original, especially for the aliens, and the idea is original...not aliens vs humans but the way the gameplay is) is because they innovate. They try something that hasn't been tried before. I've never played a WW2 shooter that RELIED on iron sights. And the AMAZING thing is that IT WORKS! As bad as it would seem to use iron sights in a mod like this, it works out perfectly. As with Atlantis. The guns are different, they fire different...yet they are balanced...and IT WORKS!

    My original rant was specifically about "it is 2005. you are a member of an elite team created to destroy the underbelly of worldwide terrorism. you might think this is like all other realism mods, but it's not! It adds a purchase menu and <insert favorite weapon here>!!!!!!!!11111one"

    Because we all know that this is exactly what 99.99999999999% of realism mods are.
     
  15. Dark[NSF]

    Dark[NSF] Northwest Secessionalist Forces

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    Well thank god the majority of the folk that download the clone mods down have the intellegence to know how to install them. =P
     
  16. Hunz

    Hunz ...aka [A|K]Leviathan, mkay?

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    I think with Siege I made a relatively innovative mod. But there isnt just the problem of little to no external help (i tried it very often - now I got used to making everything on my own) - there doesnt seem to be a real need for innovative mod: When checking the server-tabs I can find several mutators which feature some weapons of medium to low quality but only 1 siege-server max.
    Additionally I think the more innovative a mod gets, the more complicated it will be (all the simple things have been done, yet, so one has to make more complicated stuff to get a innovative mod). Siege seems to be much too complicated to many people, so they wont play it.

    ...btw: I dropped development of siege and moved on to create BattleCrafts - a more simple and less innovative mod . I will concentrate on a high quality and a good gameplay instead, so perhaps this mod will be played more than siege.
     
  17. Sir_Brizz

    Sir_Brizz Administrator Staff Member

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    Why couldn't we have a "CS-clone" that is based 3945770329758 years in the future? A game can be innovative while still based on simpler/older ideas.
     
  18. [SAS]Solid Snake

    [SAS]Solid Snake New Member

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    Most definately true. My current mod idea is based off Diablo II's approach to things and I quite like it. While my mod is a stock standard game type ... I try to innovate a little.

    I never really extend my hand in reaching out for help, but Sir_Brizz, would you be interested in having chats about my new current mods? I'd prefer to do it over PM'ing since it's a publically closed mod at the moment, as a lot of the ideas aren't finalized ... but I think you'll be be great at telling me what would work and what wouldn't work.
     
  19. Caravaggio

    Caravaggio Custom User Text goes here.

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    Well brizz that's kind of what I was saying, yes, was 3000 not a big enough number? :) :p
     
  20. Sir_Brizz

    Sir_Brizz Administrator Staff Member

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    Sure, I'd be happy to help. :)
     

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