Higher Camera

[Bad.Mojo]

Another thing. The camera should be higher. About eye level, in fact (who'da thunk it?). I dunno. Seeing out of my lower sternum just strikes me as unrealistic for some reason. This would also make hip shots just that. You can barely see the barrel of your weapon in front of you or not at all, thus giving you an unobscured view, but sacrificing accuracy. When you go for an aimed shot, your view becomes significantly obscured but the accuracy is severely increased due to a) the fact that the mod is coded to behave like that and b) you are using your diopter sites or what-have-you. And take out that crosshair altogether. Your aim should be based on your aim, not on some on-screen dot.

 

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

Well, I think of the unaimed shooting as simply pointing the gun at the target, which gives you a somewhat obstructed view but accuracy that is unacceptable at mediam/longe range or if hostages are present. I don't agree with getting rid of the crosshair, unless they could model the weapon's iron sights in front of your eyes (like the M9)... if you have no aim-point, why even raise the gun up?

 

[Mr. T]

Well I can't argue the realism with this suggestion, but it might be difficult to simulate aiming without crosshairs in a game and give you the accuracy you can get in real life.

Accuracy will be affected by so many factors in 3.0 the way it is. Without crosshairs I don't think you'd be able to shoot yourself. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

 

[Bad.Mojo]

I agree that doing away with crosshairs is harder on accuracy, but that's the point. That's why you raise the sites to make use of them. You know, line up the three white dots and give it a double tap. With the gun in a casual firing position, you lose accuracy (both hard coded into the game since your arms are much less stable in that position) and on your monitor, as well. But when you raise the sites, or enter a standing/crouching/lying position, you should sacrifice speed (try running with your arms outstretched, its next to impossible and you look retarded) for the added bonus of accuracy.

The point is, if Infiltration wants to be all it can be, and all that, you need the realism. Fact of the matter is, it's a lot harder to kill a guy then it seems. Remember, even the slightest degree of variation on the barrel's orientation sends the bullet off on a completely different vector. And that's important since I figure for a real game of INF, you're get one death per round. If you wanna add strategy, it can't just be a run-and-gun, and that's really the importance of eliminating the crosshair and making aiming all the more real, as well as removing the ability to run with an aimed gun (as seen in Serpentine, I always liked that feature, very real.)

And another thing, reloading should be done one cartridge/shell at a time for sniper rifles and shotguns. Its really annoying thumbing shells into a shotgun, unable to change weapons while you're being gunned down, violently mashing the buttons trying to interrupt the sequence. If you can thumb a couple shells in, then somebody comes along on your ass, you can stop reloading, fire those shells, and get the hell outta dodge if you didn't kill him. Where's the rule that says a shotgun has to have a full load before being able to use it.

And, on that topic, when you drop a clip, all the cartridges in that clip get dropped with it. I mean, who has time to thumb out all the cartridges in the magazine, put them in a new one, and save it for later?

And, on the topic of rounds, you should get rid of the ammunition counter. I can understand a clips remaining counter, but to actually count the bullets fired for you - that should be your own job.

 

[Corin]

You can stop the shotgun and robar reloading by holding down the fire button.

In Inf 2.6 you lost all the rounds left in a clip when you reloaded, I assume that it is the same in the UT version.

The round counter will be done away with in the next version I think, or maybe in 3.0

 

[Mr. T]

I thought about this all day, and I think I agree with you Mojo. It SHOULD be difficult to aim and shoot someone, because it IS. Removing crosshairs altogether would not only make the game more REAL, but would create a level of strategic gameplay never before achieved. No one has ever had the guts to remove the crosshairs on a game like this, 'cause it would piss too many people off. Because everyone is too spoiled by Arcade style, fictional, wannabe military FPS 's What we don't realize is that the effect it would have on gameplay would be tremendous. True military tactics would HAVE to be used. There would be no more run and gun because you wouldn't hit shit doing that, except at point blank range. It would actually require you to have to use REAL SKILL to kill someone instead of spray and pray tactics. And if you tried to use Akimbo anything, forget it. It would never work. Hey what do ya know. JUST LIKE IN REAL LIFE.

If you want TRUE REALISM then you can't have crosshairs. Unless you have a scope, you should have to aim with your weapon's sights, just like you currently do with the M9. It's the only way to get total true realism into the game.

 

[Warren]

At this point, it's all a matter of perception.. see, we would love to completely remove the crosshair and use the iron sights so to speak. Problem is, if you center the weapon in front of you like the M9, it seems even more unrealistic- firing it would almost seem like you're gonna knock your teeth out. We're trying to work on something that can sorta lean your head into position and at least give the effect of the weapon still being at your shoulder. Not sure if it'll even be possible. In the mean time, the crosshair simulates using the sights.. It would be wrong to take that away and leave you with 'your best guess.' heh- bots get a fire control computer for crying out loud.. they have enough of an advantage /infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gif

------------------
Warren
Project Coordinator
i n f i l t r a t i o n
http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration

Questions? Are you a FNG? Check out our Roadmap.
Then check out our FAQ.

 

[Corin]

Actually its not that hard to hit a target Mr. T. Shooting a person isn't that hard either, at least in paintball, that's having to correct for wind, distance and movement all at once because paintballs fly at low speeds and are of a large caliber, meaning more wind resistance. The only part missing is the kick back.

 

[FabulousRex]

Well hell, methinks that using iron sights would be awesome, but far to hard to impliment in the game. The line between realism and FUN needs to be firmly drawn in the dirt on this and all future issues. God, who REALLY wants to sit at their computer for 5 minutes watching your screen turn dark from 'simulated' blood loss staring up at the simulated sky? This is just a game.

Though I do like the firing movement suggestions, 'cause who can really shoot a Robar from the hip accurately, or even at all?

[This message has been edited by FabulousRex (edited 03-24-2000).]

 

[Mr. T]

Well, Corin, I guess I just meant it's harder to aim and peg a running man in the head in a real combat situation, than it is in most games. Mainly because in real life you don't have these magical green x's appear in front of you to show you the exact location your bullet will hit every time.

And I plan on taking the most extreme stance on realism in the future. I realize a compromise will be made on most issues. And that's fine. I like Warren's answer and I agree with him.

btw, Mojo mentioned being unable to run and aim a rifle at the same time. Does it do that now? I don't remember. But seems real to me.

 

[boogerboi]

the m9 is totally unrealistic in a sense that who the hell shoves a damn pistol right up infront of his face?
u guys should make the characters arms outstretched when holding the m9 or any other pistol and the iron crosshairs can still be seen, that way and u could actaully get rid of the green ones
and i've got this idea....when leaning to position urself to aim while holidng an assault rifle, why not ACTUALLY make the guys head lean, that way the surroundings would look bent at an angle...plus then again u see the iron crosshairs...
its just an idea...

 

[Warren]

refer to my answer above

------------------
Warren
Project Coordinator
i n f i l t r a t i o n
http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration

Questions? Are you a FNG? Check out our Roadmap.
Then check out our FAQ.

 

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

Well good luck Warren, I hope you can find a way... keep in mind that the head should not lean a whole lot (maybe 5 degrees or so, most of the time you barely notice it at all), most of the movement is moving your head to the side and down onto the stock to aim. In real life the stock of the weapon *does* come straight down the middle of your view when your aiming, it just looks funny in the game because in real life you close your left eye, whereas in the game it appears you have both eyes open. You could try moving the aimpoint to the right side of the screen and putting the sights there (maybe blacking out the far left of the screen to simulate the eye being closed), or you could try just making the sights very very large, so that the back circle (talking M16 type-sights now) reaches the outer edges of the screen, with the front sight post in the middle... so you wouldn't have to worry about seeing the weapon as if it was resting on your chin, because you wouldn't see any part of it except the sights (like the weapons with scopes are now).

The first idea would be realistic in the sense that in real life you can see more of the weapon when aiming, but it would look and feel kinda funny. The second idea would look less silly, and it would be realistic in the sense that the guns with stocks would allow for much easier aiming, AND it simulates looking down the sights with tunnel vision, so it's not that unrealistic (kinda like the M9... I like the way the M9 is now, it's realistic because the game cannot simulate peripheral vision, so they don't have a lot of room for arms, and putting the sighs further away would render them all but useless, while in real life you get tunnel vision when you look down a gun, the peripheral vision disappears in favor of making both your target and sights easier to see).

*whew*... that's a mouthfull...

Oh while on the subject, I think when you look through a scope the outsides of the screen should go black leaving you with a smaller circle to see through, instead of the entire screen.

 

[Bad.Mojo]

Well, it seems I've generated a little stir here. What would be a good idea for aim mode, instead of having an in your face feeling, the fov could decrease, and all but the site and some portions below the sites remain in view - this is supposed to be a view that enhances aiming, so the lower portions of the screen would be obstructed, but with the zoom feature, the sites would be more accurate, just as if everybody was a trained personnel, knowing how to use those sites. Again, you can make it so you can only walk with the sites up, and the FOV should only go to about 70 or 75 or so, so again you decrease visibility and speed for better accuracy.

I know that sounds a bit convoluted, but hopefully it makes some sense. The FOV changes could be weapon dependant, as well, depending on which weapons have which kinds of sites, etc.

That's a nice solution, I think. It sacrifices only a little bit of realism (the zooming in part) but that still serves as an effective form of simulating what the sites are for.

and p.s.: I don't close my eyes when firing. I can't. Losing depth perception really fucks up my aim. I can't lead the target. The trick is to know how to properly focus your eyes, so the mirror image doesn't mess it up instead.

 

[Bad.Mojo]

Well, it seems I've generated a little stir here. What would be a good idea for aim mode, instead of having an in your face feeling, the fov could decrease, and all but the site and some portions below the sites remain in view - this is supposed to be a view that enhances aiming, so the lower portions of the screen would be obstructed, but with the zoom feature, the sites would be more accurate, just as if everybody was a trained personnel, knowing how to use those sites. Again, you can make it so you can only walk with the sites up, and the FOV should only go to about 70 or 75 or so, so again you decrease visibility and speed for better accuracy.

I know that sounds a bit convoluted, but hopefully it makes some sense. The FOV changes could be weapon dependant, as well, depending on which weapons have which kinds of sites, etc.

That's a nice solution, I think. It sacrifices only a little bit of realism (the zooming in part) but that still serves as an effective form of simulating what the sites are for.

and p.s.: I don't close my eyes when firing. I can't. Losing depth perception really ****s up my aim. I can't lead the target. The trick is to know how to properly focus your eyes, so the mirror image doesn't mess it up instead.

 

[Bad.Mojo]

Oh, and as for the person who suggested it is easy to shoot a target - no its not. Paintball is a little different than real guns. Larger caliber makes a larger hit radius - you'd be surprised how often a bullet might miss somebody by one or two millimetres, just by the degree your barrel is pointing.

If you want to find out how hard to is to really shoot somebody, I suggest having a .22... get some .22 snub nose revolvers, some shin, elbow, shoulder pads, a jock strap, a life jacket, safety goggles (tempered plastic) and some plastic hockey helmets or hard hats (w/chin guards), and go run around in the woods shooting each other. Its a shit load of fun, and as long as you have all the protective gear protecting your joints, eyes, sensitive areas etc., you won't get hurt (like a .22 could really penetrate a life jacket, even at contact range.) Then you'll see how hard it is to really shoot somebody.

Like Mr. T said, you don't have a crosshair exactly at where the bullet will appear, as well as the fact that the bullet does not fire on a direct vector, as well as the fact that the bullet has to travel that vector instead of that vector being factored into a hitscan. Most people are definitely spoiled in that the crosshair tells them where they will shoot, and that shot doesn't even travel, it just says, "okay, crosshair is pointing at X/Y/Z, is anything in the way? okay, it pegs that"

Real ballistics rule. Real targeting rules. As far as simulated blood loss, etc.

...

Look at how popular Rainbow Six et al. were. As I seem to recall, in that game, if you got pegged once, maybe twice, you were down for the count. And in some missions, you failed the whole thing if you were even spotted. So...

 

[Mr. T]

I just wanted to post one more quick reply to this topic. I think Mojo is RIGHT ON concerning the aiming issue, well, all the issues he brought up for that matter (except shooting at each other with .22s. I think I'll just stay away from that one.) I do, however, agree with Warren's concerns over implementing something that might not, well, look right, and his concerns over getting a good product released in a timely fashion.

However, I feel the suggestions brought up in this post should be explored and seriously considered. For the time being the aiming system is fine, but that doesn't mean changes can't be made, and making suggestions like this can only help spark more ideas on how to obtain further realism.

btw, this post was titled "higher camera", and nobody really talked about that much. As soon as Mojo brought up removing crosshairs, everyone freaked. Anyway, concerning camera position. I don't really know what to say. I mean in real life vision is different. You can see most of your weapon even when looking straight ahead, but on a computer monitor you have no peripheral vision so everthing seems a little f'd up. Well, I will say Inf is better than CS, or AHL, where it looks like you looking through your penis, for Christ sake.

 

[Mr. T]

OOPS! Didn't mean to mention other mods. I mean, I don't want to imply that there is anything wrong with looking through your penis. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

 

[Corin]

Mojo, I already mentioned the paintball being of a larger caliber than most bullets, .68 cal actually. Not so much bigger than a .50 eh? Also, paintball's must compete with the wind and gravity, very hard for a slow, light projectile, yet people still hit each other with them. Head shots are simple even with my guns(PGP pistols).

And I highly doubt that you shoot people with .22's no matter what kind of penetration they have. A .22 put to your head WILL enter your brain, it may not kill you though, im quite sure bone is harder than flesh.

And snubnosed revolver's? No wonder you can't hit anything! Small bullets and short barrels make a hard shot.

One last thing, use airsoft guns, they are fun and probably dont hurt as much as bullets.

 

[djspider]

yup go airsoft

bloody good fun especially if you are to young to own a gun.

airsoft rules (so long as you have a good gun with high velocity)