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Gun Control (again)

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by AlmostAlive, Mar 27, 2005.

  1. Bushwack

    Bushwack Avenged Sevenfold...

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    One thing i would like to mention to those touting the "regulation aspect" of gun control, thats fine and dandy, and it has worked 'OK' for the most part in european nations, I'm willing to admit that and accept it.

    However, please keep in mind we have STATES here larger than your entire COUNTRY, while in thoery regulation and collection/turning over of firearms may work well in smaller areas, it wont work well in areas as rural as upper Washington state, Montana, W. Texas, Desert Arizona, and many many more...where you may drive for several hundred miles before even seeing another car or person or town.

    Before anyone says "Make them legal only in those areas" , think about it, a lot of those areas are pristine wildlife areas, and if you prohibited ownership of firearms unless in those areas it wouldnt be long before there was a huge city in the middle of what was once a wildlife and game preserve/natural area. Most of Europe {read MOST} doesnt really have any dangerous wildlife either, there are no cougars, mountain lions, and i think aside from Russia there are no or very little bears, not to mention the lack of poisonous snakes, this is also something to consider. {when i was in Germany, the most dangerous thing i saw were Wild Pigs, and that was incomparible to hearing gunfire @ 3 am in Hamburgs Redlight district because of all the gun control}

    Just another way of looking at some things.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2005
  2. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    I don't see how the size of the states should mather. Sure places without too many humans should make smuggling alot easier, but it only means you can't copy and paste the system used in other countries. It means you have to change it to the size of the US.

    The only problem I see is that the need to carry weapons, the need to defend yourself is so omnipresent in the US that by making it illegal to carry firearms you would do something society wouldn't agree with. In any democratic system, society equals law; only it takes a bit longer for the laws to get there (like people are starting to speed more and more, therefor politicians are promising that if they get elected they will raise the speed limit, for example). Other than that, any specific examples or arguments pro gun that I've heard in this thread are pretty much flawed. But like I said: for whatever reason, society wants to carry firearms and so it is allowed to carry firearms. The only ones being able to change that are members of the society, which means you. I'm just glad the society around here wants the state to have a monopoly on the use of force.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2005
  3. Bushwack

    Bushwack Avenged Sevenfold...

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    My point was if you'll look at the Population Map of the US, is in a lot of cases, where the map is a pale yellow, there are things there that will and can eat people, not so in Europe. The population killed all or most of the dangerous animals off hundreds of years ago.

    Population has a lot of bearing on how societal things are viewed and done, not to mention the more people means less wildlife and natural state of things.

    ^one fair reason to own guns, they are simply needed on a daily basis some places, as a survival tool. Not just the USA, i would say South America and Africa too.

    In any case, im not here to debate the validity of your arguement, if you fail to see my POV, i totally fail to see yours, since you are a resident of a country that has little or no effect or bearing on whether or not i can go outside and shoot some targets today, im just lending some information as i see it to this thread, i dont want to argue ;)

    I dont need to justify why i beleive in gun ownership to anyone, other than saying i love guns, i love shooting, until i prove myself undeserving there should be no reason i am not allowed to own or carry a firearm. I do not hunt, nor do i brandish any gun with intent of harming anyone, i target shoot, i IDPA shoot. Whether or not it is my 'Divine Right by Birth' according to the Constitution is another matter altogether, and not up to me to debate, nor discuss with any person whom has no direct influence nor control of my immediate government, its a futile pursuit to debate with people not accustomed to our way of life/social values/governmental process etc.

    The only thing i fail to see is how my owning anything affects someone halfway across the world, under another rule, from another culture, its simple, it doesnt, anything otherwise would be pointless fingerpointing. My freedom to do anything, does not affect yours, yet you wish to debate my rights, from a chair in another place, which is your right, but still doesnt affect me. Unless it somehow, subconciously makes you jealous?

    I dunno, why does it obviously bother the Europeans so much? I'm asking, officially now :D
     

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    Last edited: Apr 11, 2005
  4. PadreScout

    PadreScout New Member

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    The size matter in the fact that you cannot watch everywhere at once. Texas alone is something like 3 times the size of the entire UK. Or, think of it this way - it takes something like 12-14 hours to drive from end to end of Texas if you drive nonstop at 70 MPH. I don't know what that is in KPH. A couple billion? I'm sorry, I don't really do metric, long story.

    Essentially the logistics of monitoring/regulating something small and easily concealable like a firearms are impossible. But I agree, what the people want is... mostly what they get. We can skip the rare exceptions to that and hop straight over to the why.

    This really does interest me, the whole why we feel the need to possess firearms in America. I do. I shoot for sport, I hunt deer in the winter. I grew up around them and I really can't imagine living somewhere where I didn't have a couple lying around.(figure of speach)

    A few explainations have popped up, I cant recall who said it, but one struck me as pretty close. A firearm isn't for " making you feel safe because your afriad of being robbed or attacked" it's for all the millions of situations you can't possibly imagine. As far as I can figure, this is about right. You never know whats gunna happen, no matter how unlikely wild crap does happen and you never know so I'd like to quote my old man, whom I'm most certain stole this from someone else: " Expect the best but be prepared for the worst"

    I curious why everyone feels so strongly about it. I grew up in a gun bearing home, I can't image not having a pistol around so I naurally am in favor of maintaning this familiar enviroment. But why ban them and have an unarmed society? Do you think crime will suddenly stop? People will no longer be murdered? Rapture perhaps? Whats the other sides motivation?
     
  5. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    This is strange, you are wondering why we debate. Well, I debate because it is fun. Well there I said it. I learn new things and get to discover a bit more about my own standpoints in this world.

    The fact that you own a gun doesn't bother me, hell I got one. The fact that you can walk around with one is what bothers me. Why? Because it is one world. We are all humans; having people shoot each other bothers me whether it happends here, in Rwanda, in the US or in Bosnia. I believe that once you step outside in to public areas, the state should be the only one with weapons and the right to use them under certain conditions. I tried to explain before and I will answer any questions why, but this is just to show that things aren't as easy as "it's not your problem".

    The thing about wild animals, if I understood what you meant anyway, is a good point. Although I haven't seen any violent animals during my few months of Texas, I can see why you'd want a shotgun lieing around when attacked by something with big sharp teeth. I kinda wonder if carrying a concealed pistol has anything to do with this situation though.

    edit:
    I feel people should be allowed to have certain firearms at home, I am against being allowed to have one outside your own property. Once you are in a public place there is the law defending you against murder, against rape. It is the duty of some to ensure this safety, and you should let them do their job. By carrying guns, situations could only escalate. By carrying guns, people will tend to end up in a deadly situation earlier (read my knife in the kitchen example earlier). But most of all, there is no reason to carry guns outside your home. In a situation that somebody puls out a weapon and aims this at you, how is your pistol in your holster going to stop you from getting hurt?
    Most of all when people start carrying guns outside they are a very real threat to everyone. This includes a robber, a robber that would usually steal your wallet and run might now shoot you, grab the wallet and run away. There is no way to proof this, but the robber will atleast think twice before exposing himself with his back turned against you when people start to arm themselves. This example means that where usually a wallet would be stolen, now people die. I find this unacceptable regarding of the location.

    But to answer your question, no: murders would not stop and neither would rapture. But by making the third party, the less biased party, the better trained party, the party with a monopoly on voilence and all arms outside in public areas, you will statisticly lessen the amount of gun related incidents. This is worth any flaw you could try to convince me of.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2005
  6. Harrm

    Harrm I am watching porns.

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    Actually, guns are a civic service. We have several populations that require hunting every now and then because of population overflow. I know that here in Connecticut, we have huge overpopulations of deer, because most of the wolf population was driven out or killed off in the deforestation of the 1920s-1980s. Without hunting seasons, we'd be up to our necks in deer.

    --Harrm
     
  7. das_ben

    das_ben Concerned.

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    Uhm, where did you get that third map from? Someone should tell the guys who made it that Germany wasn't divided anymore in 1995, but Chechoslovakia and Yugoslavia are.
     
  8. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    Also in Holland the part with least people in it is showed as the area with most people in it. That third map isn't exactly right indeed.
     
  9. Derelan

    Derelan Tracer Bullet

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    Padre is right when he says that the gun crimes aren't because of lack of gun control, they are a symptom of another problem.

    Unfortunately, that other problem is that there is a large American culture in which people are terrified by what they hear on the news, paranoid, and carry a gun in their pocket just to go to the mall.
     
  10. Captain Colon

    Captain Colon New Member

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    Bear in mind I haven't read anything except the first post and the last page.
    Not true IMO. The people who are terrified are the ones who go and lobby that we should be trying to get rid of guns. The ones who carry are the ones who aren't afraid to do something about crime if they have the chance...and that doesn't necessarily mean using their gun. Guns are used defensively over 2 million times in the US each year according to the department of justice, most of the time without a shot being fired.

    But how many of them on either side are going around lobbying for inner-city renewal projects? How many of them write their representatives saying that we need to figure out WHY crime is so high in certain areas (and it's not solely because of gun control or a lack thereof, although it's a factor)?

    Simply put, guns don't cause crime, guns don't cause societal problems, guns don't cause anything. There's no logical reason to restrict me from owning a gun. In all my time aruging over this stupid ****, nobody has EVER given me a good reason, and I don't expect it to happen soon.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2005
  11. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    I want to know why every nonamerican seems to think it's both legal and widely acceptable here to stuff a pistol in your back pocket before going outside.

    Gun laws and sentencing here certainly doesn't seem to reflect that. This is a pointless argument if reality is going to be so grossly misrepresented.
     
  12. Captain Colon

    Captain Colon New Member

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    What are you talking about? I dodge bullets on the way to work every day.
     
  13. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    Yeah Yurch, sort of like the concealed carry law recently passed here in Ohio:

    You can carry in your vehicle, but it has to be either locked up, or in a holster, plainly visible. (I thought it was concealed carry) Thank you ever so much Ohio State Highway Patrol. (Our idiot governor would only sign off if OSP signed off on the legislation. Their superintendent was very very very opposed to the legislation, not to mention they aren't allowed to carry off - duty in Ohio. Trust me, Troopers do not like the fact that Police and Sheriff's Agencies authorize officers to carry off duty.)

    You can't carry onto any state property (yes this includes state fairs and state parks)
    You can't carry onto any school property (includes college campuses)
    You can't carry into Sheriff's Offices, Police Stations or Highway Patrol Posts. (or basically any law-enforcement entity)
    You can't carry into a "house of worship"
    You can't carry into any liquor permit premises (this would include a grocery store with sales for off premises consumption as well)

    LAST BUT NOT LEAST, ONE OF MY ABSOLUTE FAVORITES:
    You can't carry into any business that chooses to post a sign prohibiting it's carry. This one is the Jim Dandy. Every, and I mean EVERY business posts those stupid assed signs in their windows. Apparently, they aren't concerned about criminals carrying guns illegally into their businesses, it's the people who take a course, get a background check, and pay money to legally carry that they are worried about.

    In addition to that, the way the law is written it requires off-duty police officers to fall under the same restrictions as regular CCW permit holders, even though they aren't required to obtain a permit.

    Now you tell me, if you can't carry it anywhere, what's the purpose of the law?

    I thought about teaching this course in my off time, but the law is so poorly written, vague, and ridiculous, that one actually had greater freedom BEFORE this law was passed in Ohio.

    To top it off, they made virtually no range requirement - other than the basic NRA pistolcraft course. I'm a Life NRA member, and that range certification is an absolute joke, as far as weapon proficiency.
     
  14. Arethusa

    Arethusa We will not walk in fear.

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    I'd link to the NRA's database on state firearms laws, but their site seems to be dead.
     
  15. Captain Colon

    Captain Colon New Member

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    http://packing.org for CCW laws
     
  16. Arethusa

    Arethusa We will not walk in fear.

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    I was thinking about this, actually, but that works too.
     
  17. Captain Colon

    Captain Colon New Member

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    You said the site was dead so I gave you another one :)

    I find packing.org to be a lot more accurate and comprehensive for CCW, which makes sense since that's what it's for ;)
     

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