God-thing continued

[LethaLGraphiX]

Ok people, the other post is getting a little bit too large so I'll continue here..

Now I started a thread like this on another forum by making a stupid remark abouth modern-day myths compared to older ones...

wathever.

Just to set things straight...
I'm don't regard the world as being dividible, but here's an attempt at simplifying the situation:

there are people who don't believe in god. obviously they don't believe most parts of the bible.

there are people who believe in god and believe everything in the bible.
they have a almost 2000 year old study to relie on, whereas people who don't believe the bible generally don't pay it much attention and don't have enough knowledge to counter this.

there are people who believe in god but don't believe the whole bible (or 'don't take it literally')

It is only the discussion between the first and the last group from wich both groups can gain.

This discussion gives both groups a chance to question
the way in wich they see life and evolve as human beings.

Could we focus on this type of discussion.

Now I know that I'm a newby, and I realize that some of you might find me immature and inexperienced. (I'm 21)

But I have been trough some heavy depressions all my life, not physically but filosphically.

I realize that everyone has a way of gratifying (not sure this is the correct term but I can't remeber the word in duch either his/her own existence.

Even I who only hangs on to life because there really is no alternative..(or maybe because I am a coward).

It is this reason to live that constitutes a great part of how we see the world.
It is logical that people who
get their strength from their belief will regard the world accordingly.

And in that way we atheists cannot see the universe as containing a god.
In a way, we built ourselves an existense without god, and our reason for living would be diminified by the actual existence of god.
Although we do not actually have more of it than believrs, many of use pride ourselves in being independent, in making our own world/life worthwile.
to take this away from us would be just as cruel as to take away faith from a believer.

If god would ever be proven to exist/not exist, we would indeed be lesser as humans. It is the way in wich we handle our lifes that enables us to rise above the senseless bickering that causes so much harm.

I do not think anyone (non)believing has any influence on his/her value as a person. Judge someone by what he means for himself, his friends and relatives, and you will find that by knowing him you will be unable to judge.
Can any believer find himself in this opinion?

 

[HuFlungzeDung]

So tell me, what has atheism got going for it anyway? Pride? You don't sound all that happy about what you believe.
I agree with your final statement, that everyone has value as a person and that we should not condemn others out of hand. That is also a statement made in the Bible, you'll be delighted to know /~unreal/ubb/html/smile.gif

But, truth is truth regardless of whether it is written in the Bible or in playboy magazine. The whole problem with truth, is that we have a great deal of difficulty being objective about it. So what we think is truth may in fact be a lie. One thing that Christianity has going for it, is the reliance on God to be a source of the truth. Even then, we still have arguments about what the truths are that are written in the Bible.
I would recommend to you a book called "Mere Christianity" by C.S.Lewis. It is a discussion of how a self-aclaimed athiest reluctantly had to accept the existence of God through a series of logical arguments that he says he devised himself. It is not a preachy kind of book, it's more like philosophy. You may need to read it 2 or 3 times to grasp it.

 

[UpYours]

If you were to have a change of mind (repent: as defined by the greek..not to be confused with feeling sorry for anything) (big key),,,accept Christ....and study the Word you would not feel that way....you would "KNOW" different. But until that happens.....the whole "god thing" as you put it,...will be meaningless and silly to you,,and you will feel the need to condemm Christianity and make fun of it or discredit it.
I dont know how clearer I can be on this.

And umm....lest I be misunderstood again...Im not trying to convert anybody..not at all...simply stating a condition by which an unbeleiver becomes a believer. I have known many like the poster of this thread...who have changed their minds...and some who never will.

One thing for sure..for a topic thats is not suppose to be popular or have any significance....these "god thing" threads sure do get some attention... /~unreal/ubb/html/smile.gif
Beats UT this and UT that...hehe

 

[Cammy]

There are many mystics from the world's great religions (here I am using the word in a different sense from what OFUY makes it out to be) who have actually directly experienced a supreme being or state of being, and their lives have all been dramatically transformed by this experience. Joy radiates from them. What is so fascinating is how much in agreement their experiences often are, regardless of their cultural background, circumstances of birth etc. The agreement is inexplicable in terms of interpersonal communication. It is this, and not any logical arguments or empirical evidence of any kind, which constitutes for me the greatest authority on the existence of a Supreme Being short of my own direct experience of It. (Which is something of an irony, since when you experience It you realise there's no 'you' anymore, only It. /~unreal/ubb/html/wink.gif)

The Rock may be the most electrifying event on the Net, but Cammy is (oh) the most delicious(yum, yum)...

 

[LethaLGraphiX]

Well if I don't sound happy it is probably because I'm not.
But I don't have to be happy to live my life.

Look at it as if you were climbing a mountain.
The harder it gets the more intresting.

If there ever were a way of proving the existance of a god, for me it would feel like discovering that on the other side there is a skilift.

I would not accept it, for central in my view of the world, in the way I defend my existence, is the tought that I am my own man.

I don't want to be religious for the same reason that I don't want to believe in astrologie, or depend on my parents for the rest of my life.

The kick I get from navigating a particularly difficult part of the climb is probably just as worldwhile as any religious experience you can get.
I can enjoy the beauty of the world.

However I do understand that from your point of view my life lacks something essential. I'm really pleased that you would wish me to experience the world as you do, but I have to decline.

Moreover, after the very logical first part of my life, I have now entered a fase where I decline logically obtained knowledge in favor of things I feel, and am developing my vision of the world.
In doing this I not only refuse to listen to my teachers, shun filosofical books and try to avoid discussions as can be found in the other post, but I also am learning to stick to my opinion even if I can understand or believe someone elses.

Whe all do this at some point in our lives, so I prefer to do it now and get it over with as soon as possible.
Maybe I will believe later on in my life.

Maybe not.

 

[Cammy]

I don't think it's a good idea to shut oneself off from others' thoughts and experiences completely and just limit oneself to the narrow world of one's own convictions. You'll just stagnate. This is the opposite extreme from blind reliance on 'external' authority. One might just as well cut oneself off completely from the rest of the human world and live in an oasis in the middle of a desert for the rest of one's life.

And if I may point it out, while we can have no final evidence that there is a Supreme Being or Power, at the same time we have no evidence that there is no Supreme Being or Power either. The atheist's conviction is actually not more credible than the believer's. If you want to say there is no Supreme Being or Power, the onus is upon you to furnish evidence for your claim. Otherwise, you're just a believer of a different kind -- a believer in the nonexistence of a Supreme Power. Not that I don't respect what you wish to believe. If you want to believe there's no Supreme Power, fine -- just remember there are others who march to a different drummer.

But as a fellow human being I do counsel opening yourself up to people and the world around you. Learn to put all your beliefs and convictions aside -- whether these are beliefs in the existence or nonexistence of a God -- and see the world through the eyes of a baby. Learn to be sensitive enough to let your heartstrings be tugged by the beauty of a sunrise, a baby's smile, a flower in full bloom -- and playing Unreal /~unreal/ubb/html/biggrin.gif. Religion is ultimately not about belief, it's about seeing. Beliefs and convictions deaden the mind.

I leave it to you to take this little advice.

The Rock may be the most electrifying event on the Net, but Cammy is (oh) the most delicious(yum, yum)...

 

[UpYours]

Cammy, the kind of experiences you are referring to are explained in the word...but the "supreme being" is just an expression for something they do not understand and they assume that is what it is...and in fact it could be in some cases..but not God. One needs to understand the mission of fallen angels and demonism to better this phenomena.
I'll not get into here as it would just open up another can of worms but there are reasons behind these "occurences"..at least from a Biblical perspective...if you believe in that. One thing for sure..the Bible has answers to just about anyhting you can think of..whether you choose to believe them or not is another thing.
And LethalG.....all people are subject to ups and downs..being a Christian doesnt change that..hang in there and things will get better...its a cycle that comes and goes..for all of us...and yes (you knew it..lol) theres a reason.
Also life pretty much is in one's attitude..thats why something can seem so boring or useless to one...but interesting and exciting to another. Or the glass 1/2 empty or 1/2 full thing. Some are satified making 30k/yr and it would be poverty to others....basically YOU choose (choice again..hehe) on how you see it..."it" doesnt control how you feel...you do. Course this doesnt mean that if you read the paper and find a little boy was killed in a car crash that you could somehow choose not to feel sad...thats not what Im saying. Im talking about one's overall perspectivew on life and what goes on around them...
Anyway....I hope you get your issues worked out..cause life is meant to be fun despite our reocurring troubles...or tests I prefer to call them.

 

[HuFlungzeDung]

LethalG, I hope that you can see the potential collapse of your world if you rely totally on your feelings for knowledge. Your human mind is not a spiritual entity, it is part of a physical body. Neither you nor I know if everything is working at 100% efficency in our heads, so if we happen to have a moderate to severe chemical imbalance in our brains, how do you think that is going to color the view we have of the world that we experience?
It is a mistake to be anti-logical. Being logical does not mean that you have to swallow whatever I, or anyone, says is logical. Logic is a pattern of thinking that IS a pattern, not just a haphazard mismash of experiences. Once you have determined something logically, it is very seldom neccessary to go through the agony of ever proving it again. It provides a foundation for thinking that you can build upon.

The search for "good feelings" is still a valid basis to begin your search for the logic of your life. Why do we seek what makes us feel good? Is there a universal principle underlying the concept of feeling good that we all agree on? Yes, we all agree that it is good to feel good. This is an AXIOM for the reason why we can enjoy living.

Is it not better to be alive than dead? Is it better to BE a beautiful sunrise or to see the colors and the transformation of night to day. I don't think that the sun, moon or earth have any feelings at all for a sunrise. It is completely wasted on them. The mountains that the sun rises over do not care either. This is just one of many examples I could give to PROVE that being alive is better than having never lived, through an AXIOMATIC principle. The inanimate universe is totally unaware of itself and is absolutely pointless without living beings in it, to use it and enjoy it.

Feelings are extremely important, as they lie at the heart of why being alive is better or as God would say "good". Read the first chapter of Genesis again (or for the first time). God pronounces "It was good" many times in there. And I don't believe that we could really argue with any of those pronouncements, because they each happened after a milestone was completed. Notice that in the very second verse, that God says that the earth was without form and void, but He did NOT pronounce that to be good. It was not until He performed the creative acts that produced what He wanted, that He started calling things good. Did you notice, that God, yes even God, LIKES to do stuff that pleases Himself. He has feelings apparently, and a "good" thing, too, because we got to cash in a little later on, when He really got going with creation.
So, to sum up, good feelings are a basic motivation for life. That is a logical fact that I have attempted to prove by example. So seek out what makes you feel good.

Along the way, you are going to discover that there are other beings in this universe with you. You'll begin to notice overlapping "spheres of territory" between your "good feelings bubble" and the bubbles of the other individuals in this universe. You are not completely free to do everything that feels good to you because it starts to make others feel bad. So, we discover that feeling good has its limitations, which we must logically begin to categorize, so that we can avoid, as much as possible, the bad feelings that happen during conflict with other people.

We can understand that," yes, such and such feels good to me at this moment, but, if someone else were doing this to me, I would not be feeling good about it. Therefore, I will not do this, and for a reward, I will feel good that I did not harm anyone else". So, I hope that you can see that there is a chain of logic that is forming, even about the topic of feelings. There is no mathematics in this logic, but there is still an underlying premise (axiom) to the subject that allows us to build a mentally stable world view.

 

[HuFlungzeDung]

I urge you to obtain a copy of the book "Mere Christianity" by C.S.Lewis.
I cannot find my copy, but I know that he has another argument something like this with regard to "Good versus Evil".

Why couldn't Evil be the basic foundation of logic? It is because Evil is dependant on Good whereas Good is not dependant on Evil. It is possible to enjoy something completely, because it is pure fun, or it smells nice, feels nice, tastes nice, etc. There is no basic requirement for there to be anything Evil to be associated with a Good event, to make it good or even to enhance it.
Evil, on the other hand, is weak. It can only do what is evil because doing so, makes Evil feel good! It is easy to come up with an example: Suppose that an evil man likes to rape a woman. Notice, he is driven by the desire for pleasure (a good thing). He does not commit this action because it makes him feel bad. No one ever does an evil action just because it is evil, there is ALWAYS some kind of a selfish pleasure to be derived from the action.

Even if you are a rebel and liked to riot in the streets, you'll notice that the word "like" is in there. What kind of a rebel would hate going to riot, pillage, and burn so that he could hate despising himself unless he ultimately enjoyed the mental picture of "Boy, am I the most Evil guy or what?"

I believe that proving that Evil is dependant on Good for its existence, demonstrates the POWER of GOOD versus the weakness of Evil. It also proves that God, if He exists, is Good and not Evil. If He had any evil, then He wouldn't be God, because another being could come along and be mightier than Him by being ALL GOOD.
Besides, why would any Evil Entity bother creating something as good as the universe? Why would any Evil entity bother with creating the senses of taste, sight, sound, touch, or hearing? Why instill in us an appreciation for music, a sense of awe at an amazing sight, a gaggle of goosebumps from touching another human being? It is all from the abundant, overflowing activity of a Good mind, God's mind.

So, any athiests out there, tell me again, what is so appealling about believing there is no Good? What advantage is there to you? Are you really satisfied by the 2 seconds of PRIDE that you feel, because you are a "self-made man?".

"Whoa, there" you come back. "We athiests do not believe in God, but we still think that there can be good." That is a little bit ridiculous, don't you agree? What are you using to decide that there is "good" ...out there? You are using a mind that you didn't create to decide what is good! Is your mind any good? Is it not a remarkable and useful and amazing instrument? Do you know how to make one, make a mind? I doubt it! Yet, that same mind says that it created itself. That has got to be a case of blindness if I ever heard of it.

 

[HuFlungzeDung]

IIIrd Epistle of HuFlungDung /~unreal/ubb/html/smile.gif
When it comes to seeking out the source of all that is Good, we are admitting that we like what is good, and want to know more. However, the memories of our own shortcomings is discouraging to us. We feel tainted, like beggars invited into a ball. Everything is good around us, but we are not, so we begin to build a wall of defense, because our own minds feel the instinct for self preservation. That is a good instinct. However, it can cause us to get cut off. I believe that just admitting that we "need to feel good about ourselves" can be a liberating idea.
Did you ever stop to think about what happened in the Garden of Eden, after Adam and Eve sinned? Wouldn't you think that an All-knowing God would be fully aware of what they had done? Of course He was. But, was He the one that ended the "walks in the garden"? No, He still went there even on the day that they sinned. It was Adam and Eve who hid themselves. The awful realization of what they had done must have hit them like a ton of bricks! Now, they couldn't face up to God, because He was too nice of a guy! They were familiar with Him since "day 6", so there was not likely a feeling of "He is so great, and we are so puny" or they would have been afraid long before they sinned. No, I think they realized how dispicable they were. So, IMO, to strengthen their own feeble self image, they had to hide and make up excuses.
They had to begin to think that they could make it on their own, because they thought that God would be hurt and vengeful against them. Mankind still thinks this way.
God's simple message to us is the simple sentence that Jesus spoke to the woman taken in adultery (in your bible John chapter 8).
"Neither do I condemn you, go your way and sin no more".
What!!!! You mean she didn't have to kill a lamb and spread it's blood on the altar first? Jesus hadn't been crucified yet! How could she be forgiven? Or was she condemned until He said otherwise? Or, had He never ever condemned her (or, by extrapolation, anyone else) yet?. I believe that that final statement is the truth but, as I learn, the truth may change. God has not pronounced judgement on us yet, He is available to be the friend of mankind. It is us who will not accept that. My point is that you can quit feeling bad and self concious about who and what you are..... right this second, IF YOU WILL IT. God has already done all the work that needs to be done to make us as righteous
as Himself. All you need to do is acknowledge that He is here. Open your mind to the possibility that there is more to this universe than exists inside your own head. This is the first stage to growing into a "spiritually minded" human being. It is NOT the final stage, so don't let complacency fill you.

 

[UpYours]

HFD....
You and I are wasting our time. You could bring God paraded in a limo and they would still find some way to discredit it as being something else..this $hit has been going on since time began....some will believe and some wont..no matter what you do, say or show.
I understand how you feel..really. But but let's quit knocking our heads on a wall.
Chalk it up as just an inevitablilty..that there are many who will not ever believe...no matter what...as it was said. Quit wasting your time on them. I will only respond now to any insults towards me or my Father.
"Where's my T shirt?" Like I need another one....lol

 

[LethaLGraphiX]

No man, this post isn't about making us belief. This is a chance for you to think about the core of your own belief, to make it grow and blossom.
We have to speak with eachother to see ourselves. When I shut myself off I mean that I have stopped listening to monologues. I still experience the world, and I still share my thoughts (with you guys for instance).

And this phase I'm going trough has nothing to do with my (obvious) depression.
To put it in other words: While whe age not only do we influence our view of the world but it also influences who we are. It works backwards.
By forcing myself to develop my own view without taking input from others (with the exeption of input with feedback) I am forced to make this as flexible as possible. I have to change myself according to what I see instead of adapting my view to what suits me.

In a way, this is turning me inside out, and I hope it makes me more sensitive.
My bond with the world is growing stronger because I refuse to make a logic (and therefore almost certainly twisted) translation from it.

If I were going crazy (in a way I already am)
I could never justifie my actions, because I would feel the response of other people.
It is in justifieing the logics that control our society that most crimes against humanity is born. The serbs didn't commit genocide because they felt like it. The individual killings where indeed done willfully, but the support from there government was the conclusion of a series of logical decisions. So was the decision of bombing serbia instead of sending in a elite squad to take milosovic out. Everybody felt that these were wrong thing to do, but the people that govern us convinced us that it was the most logical thing to do.

Do not mistrust your feelings. Only now are scientists learning about how our brain interprets other people, and (surprise surprise) the more they dig the more they discover that we are naturally very good at it. If we misread other people's feelings its mostly because that is the best thing to do one way or the other.

It is the poisonous logics of people who think by themselves, passed on to others who do not question them enough, that feeds the seed of evil that lies within everyone.

About evil and good. I used to be able to illustrate and prove logically that good and evil are cultural and thus not absolute.

So I rejected both. Now that I have freed myself from logics I know that still, but my feelings don't have to be absolute. I know what is good and what is evil, even without believing.

In short:

I did not cut myself off from the world, I am just learning to see it trough my own eyes. And trough recognizing my mistakes I teach myself that I cannot believe myself or anyone else for a minute.
If you want to now what is going on, ask, investigate, find out. but never assume.
A priori knowledge is per defenition wrong.
A posteriori knowledge must be obtained by interaction, not by measurements.

And the way you feel is most likely more accurate than what you think.

 

[Taskmaster]

Plus OFUY and HFD, God's word does not return void, which is why I personally choose to use so much scripture in my posts. God's word clearly states that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Not by my words and not by your words, but by God's words.

So what appears to be a waste of time is not. I know you both understand this, but I'm just reminding you and encouraging you to plant and water the seeds.

I declare myself to be the self-annointed voice of reason for PuF! Opinions expressed by Taskmaster are not necessarily those of Planet Unreal!

 

[Cammy]

Read some Krishnamurti, friends. One of the most spiritually enlightening authors I've ever come across.

Okay, guess I'll state my own convictions on the whole matter here -- not to start a debate with anyone, but simply to share them with you. There exists a Supreme Power which transcends time and space -- and all of creation, all of us included, is a manifestation of this Supreme Power, just as waves and ripples and foam are all but manifestations of the sea. Thus all of creation is actually alive and spiritual, and all life is one. But we have forgotten this, and the big job for us now is simply to restore our inner sight.

Just stating my convictions, as I've said. If you disagree (whether it's because you're a Christian or an atheist), fine, we'll just leave each other alone and go our separate ways, happy happy, nothing further said. OKAY? /~unreal/ubb/html/smile.gif

Mmmm... Creamy legs...

 

[UpYours]

No problem Cammy....whatever you wanna believe is strictly your business.

 

[UpYours]

Just remember this....
Anybody that looks into themselves for answers...(no matter how confident you are) will always be insecure as to their choices.
I dont care how much you think you are right or correct..your postion will be one of pride and arrogance...and not necessarily the truth..or fact.
You can fool others..but you cant fool yourself deep inside...its impossible.
You will always have doubts. Imposing one's will in a debate and winning doesnt mean you are correct in the subject matter..it only means you won the debate....and in some cases...that makes you a winner and loser at the same time.
And Im not being hypocritcal.....my opinions are the result of much study and curiosity into what used to be the unknown. Whether you want to use faith or science and logic , you cannot prove the Bible wrong in any regards other than your "personal" opinion. Yet it can prove you incorrect in a thousand ways.....and you know it...deep inside. thats why it bothers so many to be talked to about it....it irks them and there is a reason why.
If somebody wanted to dicuss with you the career you were taking, what car you were buying, a savings plan, the food you eat, foreign policy, sex, govt, disease, famine, earthquakes, etc....you would talk and speak your mind or opinion.....freely, with no animosity...
But...when it comes to God and the Bible...everybody's hair stands up.....
Gee....I wonder why thats so??
(Not really...I already know why)

[This message has been edited by OFUY (edited 02-14-2000).]

 

[Cammy]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR>And Im not being hypocritcal.....my opinions are the result of much study and curiosity into what used to be the unknown.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same here.

Mmmm... Creamy legs...

 

[LethaLGraphiX]

You're right: I always have doubts.
And that's the good thing: I always have to doublecheck myself.
For I do not believe there is a single, universal Truth.

I believe knowledge can be gained only by interaction.
And although this means I will never completely understand death, drugs, or other things I haven't experienced, I am constantly aware of this.

I will never raise y voice about something I don't know **** about.
Look at my posts: I never said you guys were wrong.