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God orders murder: Insanity in the USA, Barbarianism in the middle east?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by phil, Apr 4, 2004.

  1. CiD

    CiD I'm on Offense!

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    wasn't he calling him crazy for claiming god told him to kill his son? (if he did say abraham was crazy) like that nutter in texas?
     
  2. W0RF

    W0RF BuF Greeter, News Bagger

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    God also told him he would have a son when his wife was 100 years old. Maybe he was crazy, maybe not, but hey, out came Isaac.

    The only way you can surmise that Abraham was crazy would be to assume that everyone present in the room when the text says "and the Lord spake, saying..." is also crazy, and the authors for writing a book claiming God spoke to various people. Either He did, or He didn't. If He didn't then you might as well throw the whole thing out, and that makes the example irrelevant. If He did, then there's little reason to doubt that He also did in this instance, especially when we have the benefit of hindsight to understand His reasoning.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2004
  3. _Zd_3s_

    _Zd_3s_ Regristered User

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    Congratulations for making the first on-topic response in this thread! :clap:

    Although I don't think phil's point is entirely valid.
    This woman committed her terrible act because she heard voices in her head, while the "barbarians" in the Middle-East (or the 9/11 suspects Scumgrief mentions) usually commit their acts because of peer pressure, repression, hopelessness, indoctrinated hate, revenge, etc. There is a religious component in their considerations to kill other people, but the reasons I mentioned are the deeper motives.

    She killed in a moment of divine inspiration. On her own.
    They kill after a long process of sorrow, powerlessness. In a social context.

    The situations are different and therefore it's hard to paint a parallel and claim this "moral relativity".
     
  4. tool

    tool BuFs #1 mom

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    In my own personal opinion, I think the lady just decided to murder her kid for whatever reason, and the lawyer thought it would be a grand idea to blame God for the murder and try to get her off on basis of insanity. Sadly it worked, and something that has nothing to do with this murder is being blamed, which is even more sad.
     
  5. OICW

    OICW Reason & Logic > Religion

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    The kindest, most loving and caring God of all, you fool! :rolleyes:

    When I read the Bible (I'm agnostic FYI), both the Old and New Testaments, I'm utterly amazed at why exactly Christians see God as a caring guy.

    HE HATES YOU ALL PEOPLE!
     
  6. MÆST

    MÆST Active Member

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    :rolleyes:



    (man, that's twice in this thread already that I have had to reply to a post using only ':rolleyes:'. either keep it more on topic, or, at the least, if you are going to venture out there make some sense)
     
  7. tool

    tool BuFs #1 mom

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    God only punishs the people who do bad. We do the samething as God, so why should we be pissed at God? Isn't that kind of holding a double standard?

    What about all the times the Bible says God loves his children? Since God obviously hasnt killed everyone yet i'm more inclind to believe that God does infact love us more then he hates us. And he sure as heck doesnt hate everyone.

    For someone who claims to have read the whole bible... how did you miss the part where God is also just? Not just kind and loving. He cant be one or the other, he has to be both, which he is. And if you bothered to really read and understand all the chapters that contain verses where God kills people, it is because those people were wicked, and were out to destroy everyone.
     
  8. Hadmar

    Hadmar Queen Bitch of the Universe

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    "God only punishs the people who do bad."

    Wait a sec, I thought only peole who accept Jesus as their saviour go to heven and everyone else goes to hell, no matter if he/she lived the life of a saint or was a wannabe Hitler. I'd say hell is punishment. I'd also say it's not just to put everyone there who dosn't even know about the religion. And yes, I even go so far and say not being christian by choice is not "doing something bad" and deserves punishment.

    I can see how 'just' and 'loving' your god would be to me.
     
  9. Luminuis

    Luminuis Herald of the Newest Dawn

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    If you don't believe in something, even if it's just spirituality, then you're missing out on one of the core facets of humanity. Me, the penultimate true Agnostic found his answers, and I wear a cross now, not because I'm Christian, but because it's a symbol that holds power to me in a different way than most people realize.

    Mentally Ill should not be killed simply because they're mentally ill. She did, however, commit a crime. The question is whether or not she was coherent enough to do it on purpose (Regardless of reason) Or whether it was an act of emotion. If she did it on purpose (Regardless of reason) It is Murder 1, and punishable by Life++ or the Death Penalty. Sadly, she will probably get neither, because people defend her because she is "Unstable" and "disturbed" and while yes, that is true, so is the fact that she killed two defenseless children, and would likely do it again.
     
  10. OICW

    OICW Reason & Logic > Religion

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    Assuming that the Christian God is real, let's see what he's done to "bad" people in my life alone:

    God decided to punish a very, very close family friend by letting him die suddenly about 30 months ago whilst on holidays. Why? Because that evil, son of a bitch decided to take his first vacation overseas with his wife, which was their first real one for over two decades. Clearly wanting a life is bad, so God killed him. Better yet, the fact that he was a devout Catholic meant jack shit to God, so he let him die (if he truely loved his children he wouldn't have let that happen. Or if that's not the case, then he punished him) overseas, and THEN decided to dump several thousand dollars worth of financial bills, plus an expensive frivalous will claim on his widow at the same time. Nice loving God, ain't he :rolleyes:

    God also gave my grandfather, who is also religious and believes in God a heart condition which required a pacemaker to be put in whilst he was visiting us from England. Okay, so far, God's love appears to be nowhere, but he sure feels like punishing "bad" people who deserved it by not believing in hi- oh wait. Whoops :mad:

    I have many more examples of how God punished "bad" people in my life. Oh, and don't get me started on the number of genuinely evil people out there thriving and not suffering for what they've done to others.

    I get real tried of hearing about how loving and kind God is. If he really exists, he's an uncaring, twisted and incompetent fuckup who decides that it's our fault that he made us imperfect and so he inflicts punishments on us.
     
  11. Dus

    Dus Confused, I think, maybe.....

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    I suddenly remember why I left these boards....

    What a bunch of shortsighted ppl in here, djeez.... :rolleyes:

    I myself am not religious, but at least I have the curtousy(sp?) to respect other peoples believes. Just because one person says God made her kill someone, doesn't mean suddenly all religious people are crazy.... so STFU already!
    I remember that just before I left these boards a year and a half ago, there were a lot of threads like this around, with non-religious people flaming religious people because of one thing or another and vice versa. In my oppinion everyone has the right to his or her own religion. And everyone that goes finding excuses to say that any religion is bad, just because he (or she) doesn't have that religion, is a f*cking RETARD!


    Now on topic:
    First of all, this thread has nothing to do whatsoever with any kind of religious discussion. As I see it this thread is about the inequality of some justice systems. A person who says God told her to kill someone gets off the hook based on insanity, whilst people that kill because they say Allah told them so get the death sentence or life. This is not fair imo, no matter who the **** told you to kill, you're completely insane, but should still be locked away forever. Not get some kind of special treatment, because you're insane. DUH! Everyone killing another person is insane, should all killers get "medical treatment in a high security hospital"? F*ck no! Let them rot in a cage I say.

    Anyways, that's my 2 cents
     
  12. _Zd_3s_

    _Zd_3s_ Regristered User

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    We've had like two months straight of constant religious debate here at Off-Topic. At first it was all very nice and civil and people were listening to each others viewpoints. Lately, people have gotten tired of the constant babbling back and forth about relgion and the responses are getting more vile. I, for one, am getting pretty tired of how every single thread that is even remotely linked to something religious is turned into a debate on the existence and the nature of God.

    Back in the days this entire debate was at least confined to the massive "Is there a God" thread, where knowledgeable people had fairly intelligent debates. Right now, Off-Topic is littered with splintered religious debates that the laymen are getting sick of.
    I'm glad to see you are a lot more nuanced and broad-minded than that "bunch of shortsighted ppl in here, djeez". :con:

    Your definition of "insane" differs from the legal definition of insane. Of course, for us people, it's hard to imagine why you would ever resort to killing. Therefore, we label people who do that as "lunatic, insane". I can understand that. For the law, however, "insane" means something different than "irrational, extreme, cruel". When someone is legally and medically insane, he or she has a psychiatrically defined condition. Insane people are ill.

    Psychiatric diseases aren't very well accepted, because people don't seem to understand that a chemical or anatomical disorder in your nervous system can influence your behaviour in such a way that you can't consciously control the things you see, hear, feel or do.

    Insanity is a disease. In some cases, it can be treated very well with medication. In some cases it can't. These people have a physical disorder; they're not just acting weird because their mommy beat them and their father killed himself. External influences like these do affect the course of the disease, but they're not the reason why somebody becomes insane.

    If somebody hits someone with his/her car, because he/she suddenly had a heart attack, you wouldn't think it was fair to send them to prison for that, would you? No, you would send him/her to a hospital to receive treatment and perhaps you would limit his/her right to drive a car. That's more or less what's being done when somebody is found to be insane. Sending someone like that to prison is no use.

    People that kill their rich uncle to get his estate. People that kill their ex-girlfriend because they're jealous. People that rob a bank and kill a hostage. Those are the people that should be sent to prison and those are the people for whom a few years in jail could actually help to stop them committing more crimes in the future.

    You get the point? Welcome back, by the way. :con:
     
  13. MetalMickey

    MetalMickey Banned

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    Not only that, but he deliberatley based the launch of his religion into the modern world in the dark ages, in an era where thousands of similar prohphets were preaching their own religions, making it impossible for people of average intelligence or above to accept that his version was or is the correct one.

    Why send Jesus back at that time, when his message would become confused and would falter before it reached all the people in the world? Why not wait till the communications age? God deliberatley left the Chinese, South East Asians, and Native Americans and Australians with no access to his teachings. Whole races of people lived and died without ever even hearing of him. Was this by design or just by incompetence?

    Either way, hes either vindictive or incompetent.
     
  14. Dus

    Dus Confused, I think, maybe.....

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    Sorry, you're right ofcourse. I wasn't thinking when I wrote that. Religious debates (or more accurately: flaming about religion) always get me a bit wound up :hmm:

    I understand perfectly that there are people with a psychiatric disorder who can't help themselves when they do these acts and I agree that medical treatment is important.
    I wasn't trying to say that every single killer is (medically) insane, although it came out like that. The point I was trying to make is that the "temporarely insane" defense is often used when it shouldn't be used and often isn't used when it should be used. Or something :con:
    Sometimes the justice system is a bit unbalanced, that's all I was trying to say....

    Thnx for pointing out my stupid mistake ;)

    Thnx
     
  15. Dus

    Dus Confused, I think, maybe.....

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    It is clear that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
    First of all, the religion of Christianity was first "launched", as you put it, in the first century AD. The dark ages (=middle ages) started at roughly 500 AD. You're off by 400 years :p
    Secondly, the religions at that time were quite well established around that part of the world, there weren't a lot of religions around as you would have it believe. In that part of the world you only had the Greek and Roman religion, which was basically the same, the Jewish religion and the Persian religion. That's it. At that time Israel was surrounded (and even part of) the Roman Empire.....
    Thirdly, according to the Jews, Christians and Muslims, all of the people in the world actually once had Jaweh, God or Allah, whatever you may call him as a God. But at one time they decided they wanted to reach God and built a Tower so big it reached into the clouds (Tower of babylon), it crashed down and as a punishment God dispersed the people over the world and gave them different languages so the wouldn't understand each other (I may not be netirely correct on this part, it's been a long time since I read the Bible ;))
    And finaly, most importantly: According to Jews, Christians and Muslims, God created Man in his image to rule the world, he gave Man free will and everything. So all the wrong doing in the world is not because God wants it like that, but because he gave us the earth for us to rule as we see fit.(according to the Torah, which is also part of the Bible and I think also of the Koran). So don't go blaming God for everything wrong in the world, that's completely our own fault.


    Well, that was fun, but now I'm growing tired of this discussion. I suggest all the people that are flaming each other over religion take a little time to actually understand the religon they're flaming. I'm not religious myself (even though I was a Christian up until a couple of years back), but I take the time to get to know a little about something before I judge it.

    My 2 cents... (although it's more like 40 cents by now :p)
     
  16. tool

    tool BuFs #1 mom

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    Again, you aren't thinking on terms of being just. Why would God send people to hell for not having heard about the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Would that be fair? No. There are always exceptions. According to my faith, those who have never heard of the Gospel can still goto heaven after they die. They can be baptized, taught the gospel and be brought into Heaven. God wants nothing more then for EVERYONE to be in Heaven. But he can't just do that because it would be neither loving nor just. But the system is perfect, and those are do goto hell go there because they want to. We are here on this earth to be tested, to prepare ourselfs to live with God again in Heaven and be just like him. If you are evil then you can't be in Heaven.

    Doesnt matter, we have the samething today as we did back then. That wasnt Jesus Christ's main purpose on the Earth at the time anyways, that is what the second coming is supposely going to be for. Jesus Christ was here to die for our sins and bring about the atonement. And yes he did talk to the entire world. That is what the Book of Mormon is for, it talks about how when he spoke after his resurrection three days from his death, he spoke from Heaven and the whole world heard his message.

    Again, you prove you know nothing about the Gospel. Read what Worf said earlier, these punishments only came during the times of the old testment. Now Gods idea of punishment or "justice" is to send those who are bad to hell. God doesnt just intervene in every single situation of our lives when something goes bad. We have to have faith that everything will be ok, but sometimes that isnt enough. Again, like I said, we are here to be tested. God decides when it is time for us to go, yes, but if these people lived righteously then they will get the reward they deserve. You should be happy for those who have died and have lived righteous and good lives. Because they will get the just reward they deserve.

    If God is so hateful today, and unloving, then how come over 2 billion people are Christians and follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ? How come millions of people can testify to blessings and miracles that only the God described in the Holy Bible and Book of Mormon could perform? I myself can testify to being blessed many times by God, and knowing for a fact that it was God. Those who willingly try and make an effort know God exists, and their life will be a lot more happier for it, even if they do run into problems. It is comforting to know that our lives here on this Earth is short lived, and that despite all the pain and suffering we experience here, we will experience an happyness forever in Heaven if we live good and righteous lives.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2004
  17. Dus

    Dus Confused, I think, maybe.....

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    I'm not trying to be spiteful, but that sentence may insult people just a little....
    I myself was a Christian for 20 years, but 4 years ago I came to the conclusion that it didn't really believe in the Christian God. I have tried very hard to believe in the Christian God, because I was brought up in a Christian family, but in the end the choice was mine to continue on that path or not, and I chose not to. So saying that everyone that tries hard enough will know that God exists is a little patronising towards people like me who have tried, but came to a different conclusion.
    I'm sure you didn't mean to insult anyone, but I'd like to warn you that sentences like these is what makes other people feel that Christians want to impose their believe on others. Religion should be a conscious choice for everyone, but imo it's not right to assume that if people would just try hard enough they would believe in whatever religion you believe in. This implies that you think that people that don't believe in God don't try hard enough.

    I'm not trying to flame you or anything, I just thought I'd mention it :)

    Other than that sentence you make some good points :tup:
     
  18. tool

    tool BuFs #1 mom

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    I see your point, I apologize for that one, that isn't quite what I meant to say. What I was trying to say Dus was that if you do go by what the Gospel says, and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, pray about it, and ask if the scriptures are true then most of the time you will know that it is. Not everyone, and in your case this is obviously true will come to that conclusion. And that is perfectly ok.

    The scriptures teach us that if you live a righteous life, even if you dont accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you will be judged based on that righteous and good life that you led. Jesus Christ just wanted us to love each other, and help each other. He wants us to do these things, to test ourselfs, and have faith that everything will be ok.
     
  19. W0RF

    W0RF BuF Greeter, News Bagger

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    :tup: times a bazillion.
    You may want to give tool a little room: he's still a baby Mormon, but growing fast. I'd like to field this as your average, run-of-the-mill evangelical Christian. Heaven and Hell are not the dividing line between the good and the bad, and I'll explain why.

    In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said "he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and on the unjust, too." Bad things DO NOT happen as punishment for wrong things that we do. They happen for a billion different reasons which have nothing to do with a black-and-white benchmark like sin and punishment. For example, sometimes we get the backlash of other people's problems, like a drunk driver crossing the center line and smashing into another car.

    Everybody has their share of problems, financial or medical or psychological or any of a hundred other sorts. Life is a journey, of discovery, of growth, of change, and all these things are a part of that journey. Death is not punishment in the literal sense, but the natural result of living in a natural and imperfect world. And Hell is not merely a place for the wicked, because when you cut right down to it, we all do wrong by ourselves, by others and by God. Our concepts of good and bad are open to subjective interpretation, as evidenced by the broad variety of relative morals that people eschew, but those who are honest with themselves know that nobody's perfect, and to place oneself above other people is an ongoing cycle of pot, kettle, black.

    Salvation is an act of love and of mercy, and the lessons we learn from the Bible and our own lives should serve to make us better people, not superior people. In any event, I continue to take exception to implications that God is vindictive or uncaring based on the condition of people's lives here. Especially when we have so much power to improve quality of life on this planet, and still do not do it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2004
  20. tool

    tool BuFs #1 mom

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    Worf, I said that in my other reply, not the last one, but the one before that.
     

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