Further discussion on ghosting

[Hannibal1]

I don't like to challenge the power of a forum moderator, especially one I respect as much as DarkBls, but I believe that he was in this case mistaken in the closing of a thread. I do NOT post this message to rant on our esteemed moderator, nor to pick a fight with him, but to continue what seemed like it could be an interesting debate. However, I do have one point to bring up with DarkBls. Your statement for locking the thread was this:

"This thread become more and more pointless and deviant."

I'd like you to explain yourself further, becuase the way I see it, the thread started out more pointless than it finished. By the end of the threada discussion over the merits of ghost recon was only just beginning. I see absolutely no material that would bring about the locking of the thread under the aforementioned statement.

Most importantly, I wish to get other poster's views on ghost recon. As I stated before, it is my belief that ghosting is cheating and unrealistic, and has no redeemable characteristics. I would be glad if anyone would rise to defend the practice.

 

[prodigybnty]

i see dead people

 

[BrownCow]

This is how i view ghosting.

Yes, it is very unrealistic. But in real life there are ways to find out where poeple are from an unreachable position. Satelights, radar ect.. Since we do not have either in inf, i treat ghost recon as a substitute for this purpose.

Just because i know where you are does not mean i am going to be able to kill you any easier. It just brings us together faster. In large maps this can be a blessing at times.

If inf had that good ole radar, then i would be more against ghosting then i am now.

But reguardless, i am not promoting ghost recon. I do not do it ever in a public match. I will use RW and do it in a clan match because the clan matches are all about winning, the public servers are all about fun. I don't consider it fun, so i save it for the appropriate place.


moooOooOooooooo*tires screech*

*THUMP*

 

[prodigybnty]

in addition to my previous post, i will recon...this is why.

i have no way of proving/disproving the use of recon on the other team. so i can only assume they are doing it. if you choose NOT to read what i am typing, so be it.

but if the other team agrees that we are NOT reconing, i will not...its probably the first thing i ask when i join a game.

however, this would be why it is going to be a server option in the patch to disable it...if you believe its wrong, then voice yourself to your server admin...have him disable it...

i do NOT like it, but i will use it if i believe the other team is also...and the only way to prevent it...is NOT to have it...so PLEASE!!! admins!!! disable recon...if it isnt disabled in the next patch, then you HAVE to expect people to do it

 

[BrownCow]

You make it sound like recon gives you a big ole advantage. It really doesn't. Knowing location is like 25% the battle. The rest is the ability to stay alert and react quick. Seems to me only people that should be worried about recon are the people who get their cosy little spots in the dark and pitch a tent.

I personally think the whole dead people not talking thing is very bad. They did that in swat/tacops in their second release and i remember how everyone hated it. They lost players because of it.

I don't have time to even look up at the text bar thing, much less read people reconing for me. If you read you die. I don't like to take that chance.

I must play on the wrong servers or seomthing, but i've honestly never had a problem with people doing it. Cept when i'm on a map some clan is practicing on with rw. But even then. They didn't plow over anyone, it was still an even game.

 

[MorphineAlien]

I really hate ghost reconing but I sure wouldn't want the designers to take our chat away. I just wish ppl wouldn't do it. You know...the "dead men tell no tales" thingy. Although someone did make a good point earlier in this thread...In the real world we do have recon in the form of sonar, radar, air planes, satelites....etc. So, I might not like it, but I won't biatch about it.........after this time....

btw....were did the spell checker go? I need it.....bad.

 

[Tommy Atkins]

IMO

The Inf design guys are solving the ghosting issue the wrong way. Instead of offering a server option to disable teamsay, they should have offered an option to disable freecam. Then again, I don't know if this is possible.

(Very) Occasionally, I use my dead time to sort out a tactic with teammates. This solution would also cut down on the impact of voice comms- it wouldn't matter if your team is running RW and the opposition isn't - you won't be able to tell people about what you can't see.

I know that the argument against this is 'I use my dead time to spot enemies and plan a different route', but I don't think that's a very strong arguement. If you want to get familiar with a map, try using a freecam offline.

That's just my 0.02% of £1.00

 

[DredDamo]

When yer dead, the only way to entertain yourself is by watching other players. I'd hate it if freecam was gone, the views you can get from it are awesome (have you ever watched Installation from the skydome level? It's really cool with only a few people remaining).

I'd prefer it if I wasn't able to talk to them (since I don't anyway).

I would also prefer that people were mature enough to ASK when going into a server if people want recon or not. But they're not. Even a hardcore teamplayer like Fur admits that when asked to "meet on the bridge to fight" he stays away and nades the bridge and the players on it to get points. Very lame.

Finally, ghosting DOES give some people an advantage, 'cuz they can hide in the doorway and nade spam an area that they would otherwise approach, and eliminate unsuspecting enemies that are approaching from there. This only works with snipers and naders, of course Sometimes you still get shot.

So...some solution must be reached. I'm for disabling talking, dead to living. As for 'planning next battle', hopefully the INF team will put in that 1 minute delay between maps when you can talk tactics with your team. I'm really looking forward to that! Now when everyone rushes off, it'll be with a purpose!

Damodred

 

[DarkBls]

->Hannibal1

DId you talk about the black list thread I closed ? If you want a deeper explanation of OUR reason see the thread about it in the off-topic forum. (The Thread starter Was JonnyBoy).

The main reason it was the thread was not to disscuss about ghosting, cheat etc.. But was to report online cheater. (Black List).

It was the reason to have stuck it up too

But we don't want to handle black list anymore. The dream TActics forum have a black list and We though it would promote link in our community web site too.

 

[Hannibal1]

my responses

First off, this goes out to DarkBls:
"The main reason it was the thread was not to disscuss about ghosting, cheat etc.. But was to report online cheater. (Black List). "
I think what you're saying is that you locked the thread because the conversation was deviating from the stated purpose of the thread. While I agree that black lasting was no longer the sole interest of the discussion, I take issue with your locking of the thread because I believe that action infringes on the unspoken law of free speech which makes these forums so enjoyable. The thread MAY have turned from a conversation about black lists to a discussion about ghosting, but I see the issue of ghosting as worthy of arguing over. Locking the thread was unnecessary and cut short what could have been a fruitfull talk about an important issue.

And now on the true issue at hand:
"Instead of offering a server option to disable teamsay, they should have offered an option to disable freecam."
I agree completely. Though some servers may elect not to enable this option during public play, I still think it's an idea worthy of implementation.

"But in real life there are ways to find out where poeple are from an unreachable position."
As I stated in a previous thread, satellite detection on a squad level is unrealistic. Radar and reconaissance satellites are used for detecting large battle groups, NOT small squads of infantry. Ghosting simply cannot be legitimized by claiming it's practice is realistic.

 

[BrownCow]

Re: my responses

Since in my many many days of playing inf i have never (to the best of my memory) been in a game that people ghost reconed. Maybe once or twice when there was like 1 on 1 on a larger map, or if someone is just camping or whatnot. But right now i can remember maybe 1 time this happened. So i don't understand the whole ghosting to begin with. But reguardless, i like the losing your freecam idea much better. You would still be able to lock onto players, but when you got back to your own cam, you'd be stuck on your corpse. I think that would work very very well.

Originally posted by Hannibal1
"But in real life there are ways to find out where poeple are from an unreachable position."
As I stated in a previous thread, satellite detection on a squad level is unrealistic. Radar and reconaissance satellites are used for detecting large battle groups, NOT small squads of infantry. Ghosting simply cannot be legitimized by claiming it's practice is realistic.

I do agree with you in small squads. But from what i remember in previous posts, inf isn't a "special ops" simiulator, it is a war simulator in general. Small squads or not, it is ment to simulate general war situations i'm assuming. So with that, i do believe that satellite detection would be used. Of course not on a small squad. But i consider 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 a "small squad game" as it relates to inf. and a full out 6-8 man per team game a bigger "war" type thing. So I would treat the 6-8 man team a large army that would have some kind of satellite or radar on it's side.


in any case. .They are trying to fix ghosting by taking away talking in a server. Well, what about rw? Now you are taking away something from the 56k modem users and making them even in a worse position then before(if they did rely on any kind of recon). They really can't completly fix ghost recon doing the "no talking" thing, that is why i like the no freecam idea. It puts everyone at an equal place reguarding ghosting. You will just see more people starting to use rw. Instead of people getting on a server and saying hi, they will get on and ask where the rw server is for that team.

 

[Tommy Atkins]

The Sky's fallen! The sky's fallen!

BLoody Hell! BrownCow & I AGREE on something???

 

[BrownCow]

Re: The Sky's fallen! The sky's fallen!

Originally posted by Tommy Atkins
BLoody Hell! BrownCow & I AGREE on something???

****!! no i take it back!! i'm innocent!

 

[[L]the_Countess]

ghost recon is not a problem @ all on public servers
if you do it even your own team will tell you to stop doing it

my own team never dus it and therefor i can safely presume the other team dus not do it either

on large maps or when there is a 1on1 i will say stuff like (not with teamsay) close to red spawn or close to red spawn or in the middle
but NEVER stuff like "behind the box below the stairs from the controle room"

so i really dont see what the fuss is all about

 

[Hannibal1]

more...

"So I would treat the 6-8 man team a large army"
I see what you're saying, but the fact is that Infiltration simulates special operations actions, not full infantry engagements. Nearly everything in the mod is designed to be consistent with that premise, so you can't just insert something that deals with large armor columns and battle fleets.

"Since in my many many days of playing inf i have never (to the best of my memory) been in a game that people ghost reconed.Maybe once or twice when there was like 1 on 1 on a larger map, or if someone is just camping or whatnot."

I've seen ghosting happen many times, and the situations in which it occurs ARE camping and 1 on 1 fights, but the fact that the location of the enemy is unknown is what makes these times so much more exciting. Taking out that element simply to shorten the time before the next round begins is selfish and deprives those who are still playing of the full pleasure of the intense experience. Reporting the enemy's whereabouts to give the advantage to your team is simply cheating, and I do not accept cheating.

 

[BrownCow]

Re: more...

Because i'm bored at work...

Originally posted by Hannibal1
"So I would treat the 6-8 man team a large army"
I see what you're saying, but the fact is that Infiltration simulates special operations actions, not full infantry engagements. Nearly everything in the mod is designed to be consistent with that premise, so you can't just insert something that deals with large armor columns and battle fleets.

There has been threads about what type of "situation" inf was trying to simulate. And if i can read correctly i believe it was the popular opinion that it simulated war in general. It is not a spec ops simulator or a full scale war simulator. It is just a simulator in general.

I've seen ghosting happen many times, and the situations in which it occurs ARE camping and 1 on 1 fights, but the fact that the location of the enemy is unknown is what makes these times so much more exciting. Taking out that element simply to shorten the time before the next round begins is selfish and deprives those who are still playing of the full pleasure of the intense experience. Reporting the enemy's whereabouts to give the advantage to your team is simply cheating, and I do not accept cheating.

I was in fact ghosting last nite. Some moron "corn" was sitting in his spawn in Khaz and just laying prone waiting for people to walk in his line of site. he did it the entire match. So i reconed because it was retarted. Of course the admin said no and i stopped. But then later on others seemed to get sick of it and started yelling at him (his own team). I like 1 on 1 matches, but not 5 on 5 where there is 1 guy left on each side. It is boring to watch and play. If i'm playing and it is down to me and some other guy, please feel free to give away my postion at will. I can even use it to my advantage if i took the time to look up and read the crap poeple say.


And if you are in such an INTENSE 1 on 1, wtf you doing look up at what people typing to being with? Makes no sense. If it was actually an intense match you wouldn't remember the chat area is there. I know, it has happened.

Curiousity killed the cat. Then a house fell on it just to be sure.

 

[Hannibal1]

"I like 1 on 1 matches, but not 5 on 5 where there is 1 guy left on each side. It is boring to watch and play."
I don't quite understand how you can state that you like 1 on 1 matches, and in the next sentence say that it's boring to play a 1 on 1 in a team game.

"And if you are in such an INTENSE 1 on 1, wtf you doing look up at what people typing to being with? Makes no sense. If it was actually an intense match you wouldn't remember the chat area is there."
I'm not so worried about people telling me where the enemy is, but people telling the enemy where I am. I thought this would be obvious...

 

[DarkBls]

Sorry little off topic but for hannibal1:

thread MAY have turned from a conversation about black lists to a discussion about ghosting

No, I think you did understood the goal of this thread. It was a blacklist

A list of unwanted people. Not a disscussion thread. It was the reason why we have stuck it on top too.

/end.

Sorry, continue to disscuss

 

[Hannibal1]

repartee continued....

"No, I think you did understood the goal of this thread. It was a blacklist

A list of unwanted people. Not a disscussion thread. It was the reason why we have stuck it on top too."
...I think you think I don't know what the goal of the thread was. So, here's my explanation. This posted by JB, thread originator:

"anyways, as most of you know I am affiliated with dreamtactics.com; I do clan and player interviews and moderate the forums(which are slow lately )
anyways, we put up a new forum called the infiltration blacklist, and basically what it is is a forum where people can post about players that"

As you can see, the thread itself was not a blacklist, but an anouncement about a blacklist being put up in a seperate forum. It henceforth changed from an anouncement to a discussion of TKing and what actions one might take when confronted with a TKER. After a heated post about SOB's being "cheating SOBs" because they actively supported ghosting, and an even more heated reply to that post, I hoped that I could create a progressive discussion on the validity of ghosting(a far more worthy subject than how to torture TKers). Unfortunately, my attempt was sadly cut down by DarkBls' locking of the thread.

And now I wait for replies from DarkBls and BrownCow.

 

[DarkBls]

My bad

You're right!

I think we have made a mistake with it !

I don't know why we considered it as a blakc list. And we decided to stop that. But it wasn't a black list

So I'm reopening it !

Sorry !

If you want me to merge this thread and the JB's thread just ask