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France and "religious symbols"

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by TheNut, Feb 19, 2004.

  1. Saladin

    Saladin Fez Toting Warrior!

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    but uh, as i pointed out, thats not in there...that WAS God/Allah telling his angels to basically torture people in hell.

    edit:

    and not trying to be a smart ass, but
    Mon·gol ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mnggl, -gl, mn-)
    n.

    1. A member of any of the traditionally nomadic peoples of Mongolia.
    2. See Mongolian.
    3. Anthropology. A member of the Mongoloid racial division. No longer in scientific use.


    adj.

    1. Of or relating to Mongolia, the Mongols, or their language or culture.
    2. Anthropology. Of or relating to the Mongoloid racial division. No longer in scientific use.


    [Mongolian Mogol.]

    [Download or Buy Now]
    Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
    Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
    Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

    Mongols/Mongolia have the same root for a reason.

    Now to say it was the mongols who crippled the ME, well i disagree, im gonna have to go and say the Ottoman Government was responsible for most of the downfall, howeer, i do believe the mongols did do a LOT of damage. (I mean when hulegu khan sacked baghdad, he killed 800,000 people (talk about one of the bloodiest battles in history)
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2004
  2. MadWoffen

    MadWoffen Soon! ©

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    Was this really a battle ? Wasn't Baghdad the scientific and intellectual capital of the world ? In these times Baghdad lived rather peacefully and was the crossroad of scientific and artistic exchange. The guys there weren't warriors, ready for war or trained for it. IIRC there was a short siege and the city fell rather quickly, one of the biggest loss for humanity in the field of science, medecine, etc...
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2004
  3. Saladin

    Saladin Fez Toting Warrior!

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    they had an army, just an army that had no chance, but they still had one- And he still decided to kill them all - after making peace with them....
     
  4. Spier

    Spier 1

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    Not all of them. The ones that fled(to Egypt IIRC), later returned to kick massive amounts of mongol ass and eventually vanquish the mongols and various other infidels from the middle east. Look up "Mameluks".
     
  5. Saladin

    Saladin Fez Toting Warrior!

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    when you have such a high precentage of deaths like that, its safe to say he was killing them all, even though he didnt - considering the damage, mamelukes were unable to avenge the deaths imo. it would be impossible to make right all those deaths.
     
  6. Crazy_Ivan

    Crazy_Ivan KAR whore

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    Baghdad is the main centre of the region, because of the rivers that flow there.
    Some of the armies that went through baghdad (with or without sacking it):
    Alexander the Great
    Romans (Ctesiphon), but they went back to their side of the desert afterwards
    Turks
    Mongols
    Perisans (a few times)
     
  7. jaeg

    jaeg PopeyeTurbo

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    The opinions stated already in this thread demonstrate exacty what this legislation is about; oppressing a minority. This is not what laïcité is intended for. Forcing a social agenda onto a minority group using laws originally designed to protect them is bad enough. Doing it while in denial of your own racist intentions is despicable.

    The French, along with the other European nations whoose populations overwhelmingly support them, have truely lost their minds.
     
  8. fist_mlrs

    fist_mlrs that other guy

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    jaeg, the discussion is about removing ALL religious symbols from schools for a simple reason: the state has no religion and nobody paid by the state (especialy teachers) should advertice any religion to the children. teachers are ment to help building the character of the children, so they shouldn't represent any religion. the pupil aren't hurt in their right to practice their religion at all.

    i have no problems with any religions, i just don't like to see schools being used to spread any religion. so it is not ok for a teacher to wear a cross or whatever, he has to be religious neutral while teaching children. its not about oppressing a minority (though i find it frightening that most ppl seem to thing this is primary aimed at muslim headwear) but the teachers who are ment to teach knowledge, not believes.

    opressing a minority is hardly an realistic aim for such a law. it is primary ment to help to include immigrants to the souciety instead of seperating them, which has been done for the past decades and is the reason for quite a few social problems.
     
  9. spm1138

    spm1138 Irony Is

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    Correct me if I am wrong but the legislation we are discussing expressly forbids the wearing of certain religious headware by pupils not just teachers?
     
  10. fist_mlrs

    fist_mlrs that other guy

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    as i said, its sad the discussion is reduced to muslim headware by the media - it knida destroys the hole porpurse. i don't know in how far this ban is ment to apply to the pupil as well, but the general discussion is ment to have such a ban applied to teachers only. thats how it is in germany and poland at least.

    but even if it is applyed to everybody within the school, its not aimed at one specific minority but all people. there are dress codes in quite a few countrys, and pupils aren't allowed to wear these things along their school unifor either. i think the hole discussion is overated.
     
  11. jaeg

    jaeg PopeyeTurbo

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    It's foolish to believe that the French and other Europeans support this purely out of regard for "secularism". One only needs to observe media coverage of the issue to pick up on the racist overtones. MadWoffen's earlier comments here, while I hate to use him as an example (sorry Woffen), exemplify the type of comments being seen all over the European popular media. Combine this with the fact that blatantly racist poltical parties are now becoming all the rage across Western Europe and the picture is complete; this is being done for the wrong reasons. Even Chirac himself said "there is something aggressive" about wearing a headscarf.

    Instead, France should act quickly to reverse their course and see this matter for what it really is; a freedom of expression issue for which here is no middle ground. Secularism is respect for all religions and the free expression thereof, not the forced absence of religion in the public sector. Regardless of a minority’s cultural practices, religion or place in contemporary global society, there should never be any restriction on forms of expression anywhere in a free nation.
     
  12. fist_mlrs

    fist_mlrs that other guy

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    there are different views of what freedom is. either "everybody is free to do what he wants" or "you may do as you wish unless these wishes violate the rights of somebody else". most ppl feel more comfortable with the later option here. shure it is restrictive, but well, ppl don't want freedom if they can have comfort instead.

    its sad, but racism sells better than integration. thats why the media covers it this way: bad news = good money. politics aren't as simple as they seem usually, and i don't agree with these laws based primary to oppress anybody.

    asking why racism seems to spread in europe atm i can answer with the reason of any racism: social problems. people have much less money to pay for their comfort then 5 years ago, at the same time secularism has reached a new high. any kind of racism is a problem, but it is not uncommon under these circumstances and i don't see it becomming dangerous unless the secularation goes on.

    thats why i don't care in which way they try to sell these laws to the people, i think they help to sopport integration of immigrants, and thats what matters imo. and as i said i don't agree with a general permit of religion in schools but with teachers as persons representing the state being neutral when it comes to religion. a teacher trying to advertice his religion (and that happened to me once in the past) is a danger for integration that is not neccessary.

    politicans try to please the masses with what they say, even if what they do is working in a different direction. thats why i don't tend to take what say say for truth anyway. the media tries to catch the mood of the people, which atm is "omg, these religious fanatic terrorists are going to kill us all". sad, isn't it? this mood is used by politicans to sell their laws and ideas, wheather they are good or bad for the people is an other question, but usually they have a reason.

    oh, and please don't tell me racism is a european only problem. i might add that the frensh next to the english are propably the most nationalistic european nations, in fact they behave quite simmular to americans when it come to their home country sometimes. but if you fail to see the reasons for this you should have an other look.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2004
  13. SaraP

    SaraP New Member

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    I disagree. There should not be any restrictions on forms of expression so long as those expressions do not harm others -- things like human sacrifice are absolutely intolerable even as forms of religious expression. Furthermore, this is only true in the United States; since France has no equivalent to the First Amendment, the government has every right to pass laws infringing on religious expression.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2004
  14. Hadmar

    Hadmar Queen Bitch of the Universe

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    :lol:
    China has every right to put people in prison just for asking for political reforms becouse, you know, it's the government and all. Germany has the right to undermine the no censorship part of our costitition* in the name of protecting the youth or some other gibberish becouse it says so right next to it.

    All depends on how you define "right".


    *not that we actualy have one
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2004
  15. Saladin

    Saladin Fez Toting Warrior!

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    Hitler basically said killing all the jews was right. And the goverment did that. Doesnt mean it was necesarily right though, im gonna agree w/ hadamar's comment.
     
  16. fist_mlrs

    fist_mlrs that other guy

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    still this isn't about "you are not going to practice your religion anymore", it is "no religious symbols of any religion in school". spot the difference.

    i'd agree with it beeing a racist piece of crap if it would be aimed at specific religions only, but what the racists miss over all their joy that the evil terroristlovers are oppressed is that his applyed to any religion, be it islam, christianity, hinduism, satanism... whatever.

    the common attitude on freedom is that it is ok as long as it doesn't hurt the freedome of the other people. i can practice my freedom of religion as long as i let the others practice theirs. if a teacher, as a person who is responsible for the moral development of his pupils, is not absolutely neutral when it comes to religion or political believes there is a conflict. the only people who are should advertice religion to children are their parents imo.

    teachers are representing the government to some degree, and im absolutely happy to see the government moving away from teaching vallues the parrents should teach.


    @hadmar: i don't need no constitution, i no longer living under federal german legislation anyway: http://baumert.cc/images/uploads/geschwindigkeitsuebertretung.pdf]linky[/URL]
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2004
  17. Hadmar

    Hadmar Queen Bitch of the Universe

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    Whoa! That's awsome. I guess I should move. :lol::tup:
     
  18. kanegs

    kanegs New Member

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    My German is a bit rusty (haven't been there since June of 1989). I see a speeding ticket being challenged, but I'm getting lost in the legal arguments.

    Are you suggesting that the DDR was never properly annexed into the BRD?
     
  19. fist_mlrs

    fist_mlrs that other guy

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    not only this, according to this little text the federal german constitution does not even apply to western germany anymore and the laws of pre war germany are reactivated. basicly somebody realy ****ed up 1989/90...

    so hadmar lives in hitler germany and i in a total anarchy. god, it feels great to be free :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2004
  20. kanegs

    kanegs New Member

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    And I thought the spelling reform was confusing! ;) What's next, Fraktur?
     

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