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Force snipers to be snipers.

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by Chronic, Nov 18, 2001.

?

Sniper gun limitation poll:

  1. Yes, limit the types of secondary weapons that snipers can use.

    34 vote(s)
    64.2%
  2. No, don't limit any weapons.

    19 vote(s)
    35.8%
  1. JamesT

    JamesT sniper apprentice

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    This is right. This is how it works in real life. Just like yurch said, let the trigger surprise you.

    ---

    For the first point proposed by D.Turtle -- reticle in the tactical scope. I know exactly what should be implemented for that -- range estimation ( in other words, bullet trajectory ) and the vertical click-dial ( bullet-drop compensator ) of tactical scopes.

    And this should also be implemented for every gun.
     
  2. JamesT

    JamesT sniper apprentice

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    For the 2nd point, mouse sensitivity, I still hope yurch will spend some time implementing my "concentration" idea to further reduce the grid effect. ;)
     
  3. Tiffy

    Tiffy Back to champion the L85

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    I like the idea of having the current shooting method if your not controlling your breathing, and this proposed new method if you are. Snap shooting is something thats done instictively and is usually unaccurate. Its not something you prepare to do, so you might only pause your breathing the instant the trigger is pulled and no more, if that even. Its a CQB skill more than a sniping skill.

    I like this. I was worried that we'd loose the ability to snap shot, but this solves that problem.
     
  4. RAZZ

    RAZZ aka FURY13RT

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    The hold to fire idea is more accurate than release to fire.
    where, if after a player presses the trigger he decides to hold his shot, hes got a serious problem cause he cant cancel the shooting process quickley.

    I like the idea of using both keys.
    the "breath key" for steadying/concentrating the gun over time, and the "fire key"-pause to simulate the trigger weight of that weapon. (which would be short, but enough to make the player concentrate more on his aim than his mouse tapping speed)

    I have no experience with the rl psg or robar.
    but what I know for accuracy shooting with the .177 pistols I toy with, the triggers are shaved down so as to have as little resistance as possible.
    light trigger pull = less interference when its pulled. and you get a much better shot.

    however, steadying a handgun for a good clea shot takes some effort.
    I would assume if the trigger of a psg is lite, you can compensate by extending the time it takes to steady the rifle with the breath key.

    btw, I was always told that holding your breath is the worst thing to do.
    breathe at a steady pace. your aim will at least be more predictable and you wont be rushed to fire.
     
  5. JaFO

    JaFO bugs are features too ...

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    The only real problem for this kind of stuff is that it makes high-ping games even more difficult. Not only do you have to compensate for the lag, but now the 'pause'-fire stuff adds an additional delay ...
     
  6. Keganator

    Keganator White as Snow Moderator

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    What about with the bullet delay that yurch was planning on implementing? The extra time needed there to 'wait' for the bullet to be fired could be enough to figure out if the trigger was 'held'.
     
  7. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    That would be added to the whole thing.
    As for poor pingers, keep in mind that everyone will have these delays, not just them - it might make it easier, because they won't be getting insta-sniped.

    So what I am getting is this:
    Shooting without holding breath => normal.
    If possible, add a jerk to this as well.
    Shooting with holding breath:
    1) Hold trigger, it will fire after a certain amount of time (how long?)
    2) If let go, it fires, with time left to fire normally used as a determinant of how much jerk is added. Or should the jerk be standard?
    3) If possible, you should be able to cancel the whole thing by releasing the aim button.

    You think this is easy enough to learn and use? Seems alright to me.

    Things I need to know:
    The nature of the "jerk":
    Set direction, like down and to the right? How big? And how long is appropriate for the triggerpull process?
     
  8. Puncher

    Puncher AFA member

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    Well, even with a gun with heavy pull (such as the G3 I had), you usually shouldn't take much more than 2-3 seconds at most for a slow pull. Even with a pull of approx. 1 second you should get almost full accuracy. Much faster and the accuracy suffers though.
     
  9. JaFO

    JaFO bugs are features too ...

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    I was thinking closer to 0.5 seconds for most weapons, maybe the scoped rifles up to 1 second of 'delaytime'.

    The longer you hold the button then the smaller the 'jerk'-reaction of the aim. This would kind of simulate a 'softer/more relaxed' squeezing of the trigger and give the advantage to people who take their time to aim.

    As to the direction :
    I think it should be random from 'straight down' to 'bottom left' to 'left').
    If lefthanded weapons are implemented then 'right' replaces 'left' as the direction'
    That way it won't be too easy to compensate, altough you will have a basic accuracy once you get used to it.
     
  10. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    I have done this already, and unfortunately, I don't really like the effects it causes. It makes standing-shooting too easy, and I don't quite like the feel of having the sensitvity changed convieniently right before someone takes a shot, crouched, prone, whatever.
     
  11. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    On second thought, Maybe I will - for crouch and prone, at least. This new triggerpull idea might make it a bit too hard because of engine limitations.
     
  12. Tiffy

    Tiffy Back to champion the L85

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    For a right handed shooter a rifle 'jerks' up and right when the trigger is snatched. How much up and how much right depends on the person unfortunately. How tense they were, how hard they snatched the trigger etc.

    Lefties would 'jerk' up and left.

    Remember its only a small change in angle, so targets are usually hit at close ranges, while they mightn't even realise they're being shot at when at extended range.

    This 'concentration' bit of JamesTs. It might be worth thinking about. Implimenting it to have a real feal would be hard. Periferal vision would need to be reduced while slightly enlarging the target area. The effect should only happen over time (something like 5 to 10 seconds) and slowly, and the magnification shouldn't be large. The amount of movement allowed before the effect is reset should be small, just enough for fine tuning of the aim, not enough to shift aim to the guy 20' away from him. If the magnification is too large, the effect to quick, or the aim adjustment area to large it just makes shooting easier. This should be a tool for the sniper, marksman who is prepared to take his time over his shots. It'll also encourage people to move more.
     
  13. jlamb_vo

    jlamb_vo {GD}Spunky{Pfc}

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    The concentration idea would be redundant on top of the current effects of crouching/proning, and I doubt 'concentration' would help any if you are standing anyway?

    Since you would enter this shooting mode by holding your breath, I like the idea of 'cancelling' the shot by releasing the aim button.

    Sounding very very good, still allows quick acquisition/fire for CQB, which was my only fear.

    How long can the player hold his breath with RA before the view starts bobbing again? Could the trigger-strain length be coupled with this, or is that much too long?

    From what I imaging, the jerk effect would pull the weapon up and over?

    If the shot is taken early, I would like a reduced jerk effect. The reduction would continually increase as more time is taken (to a point), as a reflection of varying necessity depending on range. (extremely long range high-precision shots would require more concentration than a medium-long range?)
     
  14. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    I don't want to say it for sure, but actual magnification may be out of the question for now - It warps and throws the sights off on every weapon. :hmm:
    As for making the gun more 'stable', that should be easy.
     
  15. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    Yeah, I see that. Perhaps we should condense this to length of time holding breath determining length of trigger pull.
     
  16. RAZZ

    RAZZ aka FURY13RT

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    iron site snipers woulda loved some magnification in there.
    maybe if you just slide the players view camera forward, that would work to some effect(?)

    I think a two key firing system is ok so long as its kept simple to use.

    how I would like it to work, the longer you stay in "accuracy" mode the smoother your site view gets. at about 10 seconds or so, you should be in full sniper mode.
    I really dont like the current hold breath system, since it forces you to shoot prematurely. (and most just release and click again anyways)
    I would like to see it go full steady slowly, then stay steady (at the mimimum shaking level) till I release the key.

    jerk effect should be weapon dependant, as its a big part of the personality of a gun.
    I like jlamb_vo' s idea to reduce it depending on time spent aiming.

    I wanna put in a personal request if I can.
    the "time spent aiming" should take into consideration how large a motion the player is making with their weapon.

    accuracy aiming should be done in small increments, not large sweeping arc's. big gun motions defeat attempts at accuracy.
    if possible, I want to see this hold true inside inf. (that should prevent folks with fast fingers from covering a 180 degree arch in "accuracy mode" ;) )
     
  17. JamesT

    JamesT sniper apprentice

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    My summing up everybody's ideas ( WEIRD pseudo code :p ):

    if ( hold_alt_fire_button ) {
    concentrate_aim();
    accurate_trigger_pulling_mode();
    }

    if ( ! hold_alt_fire_button ) {
    normal_aim();
    normal_trigger_pulling_mode();
    }

    concentrate_aim() {
    if ( standing ) { mouse_sensitivity << no_modification ; }
    if ( crouching ) { mouse_sensitivity << reduce+2 ; }
    if ( prone ) { mouse_sensitivity << reduce+3 ; }
    }

    normal_aim() {
    if ( standing ) { mouse_sensitivity << no_modification ; }
    if ( crouching ) { mouse_sensitivity << reduce+1 ; }
    if ( prone ) { mouse_sensitivity << reduce+2 ; }
    }

    accurate_trigger_pulling_mode() {
    timer = 2 seconds ;
    while ( timer > 0 ) {
    if ( ! hold_fire_button ) { return ; /* cancel fire */ }
    if ( ! hold_alt_fire_button ) { break ; /* don't want to wait and fire */ }
    timer decreases ;
    };
    fire ( timer );
    }

    normal_trigger_pulling_mode() {
    fire ( 2.0 );
    }

    fire ( float timer ) {
    if ( 1.5 < timer <= 2.0 ) { accuracy = worst ; }
    if ( 1.0 < timer <= 1.5 ) { accracy = bad ; }
    if ( 0.5 < timer <= 1.0 ) { accuracy = moderate ; }
    if ( 0 < timer <= 0.5 ) { accuracy = good ; }
    if ( timer == 0 ) { accuracy = best ; }
    if ( full_auto == true ) { accuracy = good for every bullet after the first one ; /* the carefulness pulling the trigger is not the dominant factor now; the trigger is always held down. */ }
    }
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2001
  18. jlamb_vo

    jlamb_vo {GD}Spunky{Pfc}

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    I always wanted to see a very gradual zoom effect when focusing through my iron sights, but moving the camera forward would start clipping the gun model, throwing out all that hard meticulous work the team has done getting us iron sights at all :)

    OfP can do it because they just use a 2d pic (like scope crosshairs) for the iron sights, which does allow them to both zoom and blur the weapon. Oh well... we get to pistol whip each other all day instead :stick:

    The concentration should of course be lost if sudden movements with the gun are made, tho not necessarily over too long an arc, but the rate (delta r/t). So you can still slowly follow someone, but jerk the gun over and you must re-steady it.

    Another situation where gun-inertia would help too... this gettin through yet out there? ;)
     
  19. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    I see noone has the trigger going off after the time held in thier examples - which in my opinion, just feels right.
     
  20. JamesT

    JamesT sniper apprentice

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    huh?

    I have included that in the ugly pseudo code. The time is set to be 2 seconds before it "surprises" you.
     

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