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Fans of USA Network's "Combat Missions"

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Zundfolge, Apr 2, 2004.

  1. jaunty

    jaunty If you disagree with me, you're wrong.

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    Pound for pound, they're awful. I've never seen a group of people so ready to capitulate when something goes wrong. (Read Black Hawk Down, note the ranks of the people who fuck up) They forever win because their just so far ahead in terms of technology that the enemy often can't match them. Well, except the Vietcong. They kicked US ass :)

    Honestly though, the average american soldier is a real pussy compared to say a russian soldier or even an Australian soldier. I garauntee you that a unit of 4RAR commandos could do any job better than a unit of Army Rangers. The only difference is that the 4RAR boys fight in alot less wars because the powers that be over here have less inclination to romp around the world picking fights.

    The US Army in and of itself is rather pathetic. The US Army working together with the US Air Force, US Navy and USMC is something that no man would wish on his worst enemy.
     
  2. spm1138

    spm1138 Irony Is

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    ... got quite comprehensively kebabised.

    You mean the NVA, surely?
     
  3. Cold Killer

    Cold Killer I will Kill Bill

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    I consider the army not only the men and women it employs, but its weapons and technology as well. Given that, the US Army could be considered supreme, right?
     
  4. ecale3

    ecale3 Sniper - May be harmful to your health.

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    You sure, cause the NVA got their ass kicked when they engaged the US army in vietnam (from what i remember, i'm kinda shaky on the vietnam war though). The vietcong on the other hand, was smart enough not to take the Army on in open warfare. The Vietcong's method of fighting was much smarter.
     
  5. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    First off, Zund, good catch.....interesting. I didn't take your poke at the guy as a kick at him, more of an identification of one by their personality, i.e., oh THAT guy, what a tool.

    Ranger, I certainly hope you don't unload an M249 on a guy for throwing a beer bottle. :D

    Hadmar, I don't think they are technically "mercenaries", although I'm only basing that on my own understanding of a mercenary. Blackwater is a contractor.....they just happen to recruit and independently contract former military personnel, especially those who have some type of special operations experience. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought a mercenary just fought for pay at the pleasure of another military. Hmmmm, now that I think about it, maybe they are mercenaries. :lol: However, DynCorp also recruits and contracts police officers for employment there as trainers contracted through the US State Department.

    Ant, you are dead on. Here's my pointless analysis: I've said it before: Troops in war can behave badly. It goes back to what I've said before about psychological actions and reactions in warfare. Not saying it's right or wrong, but there is an "I'm really in the $hit mentality" that seems to take over. Here's the difference, at least in the presentation. Yes, SOME American soldiers mutilated the corpses of Viet Namese and brought home "trophies", or at least photographed enemy kills in seemingly bizzare and odd positions, and representations. In WWII, SOME troops executed German prisoners for seemingly no reason. But some of these things are the dark and dirty secrets of war. Nearly everyone has a "crazy uncle" or older friend or relative who was a veteran and has a scrapbook that has some weird photograph in it. Not many American news outlets are going to do a feature story on atrocities committed by US troops unless it is reported by a soldier, or is such a huge atrocity that it is thrust into the forefront of the news day.

    It is horrible, terribly unfortunate, sick, disgusting, etc. that this event happened. BUT, Americans being Americans, we need to see that in order to "fuel the resolve", although in some instances it can have the reverse effect. As it seemed to do in Viet Nam and Somalia. Who knows, perhaps we can chalk it up to the "wag the dog" propoganda machine. How upset and outraged would Americans be if after the killings in Fallujah was followed up by a US attack that resulted in the videotaped reprisal attack that included (all hypothetical) US troops torturing and executing Iraqi citizens?

    Try to find some articles or read some books regarding the rules of engagement in Iraq, and you will understand that we do expect more from our troops than of those that we are fighting.

    Jaunty------> Australia
    5eleven-----> United States

    I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion. I'm not going to get into a fruitless pi$$ing contest about the abilities of American soldiers, but I'm an Army veteran and I take some offense to your opinion/characterization. I will agree with you that some of the Australian forces as well as some of the Russian forces are impressive and made up of some damned tough cats. I think that calling US forces, including Special Operations troops pathetic is far off the mark.

    ecale, I agree with you in part. In Viet Nam, the US should have taken some lessons from the French who got pounded by the Viet Namese long before the US entered into the fray. Not because French or American soldiers were incapable, but because they relied on traditional warfare as they knew it at the time. Viet Nam marked a transition in the approach to warfare. You can't fight an enemy using established tactics and rules of engagement that the enemy doesn't follow.

    Bottom line: It's a horrible event, but no more horrible than every death of every soldier or civilian killed in Iraq.
     
  6. jaunty

    jaunty If you disagree with me, you're wrong.

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    I don't think you realise how close you are to the truth. Alot of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children are talking to friends back home about these "PMF Cowboys" and saying they wouldn't be at all surprised if a bunch of them did in fact go into Fallujah looking for a fight. Guess they found it. (PMF = Private Military Force, btw. It's the idiot government way of saying "Mercenary")


    5Eleven; Shutup. A US Army 13 man patrol is combat ineffective after 2 or 3 casualties because of the "leave no man behind" ethos. Honourable, but it weakens the army. That sort of thing has its place with special forces, it goes towards them leaving no evidence of them being there.

    ECale: The NVA kicked the US out of vietnam. Look up the Tet Offensive. It was the Australians who beat the almighty crap out of the NVA. VC and NVA forces decided it was better to avoid the Australians if possible than to stand and fight them. (I know that sounds biased, but it's the truth, and considering all the Australians were basically concentrated into a relatively small area, it wasn't particularly hard to avoid them)
     
  7. Cold Killer

    Cold Killer I will Kill Bill

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    Australians and Russian's don't do this?
     
  8. jaunty

    jaunty If you disagree with me, you're wrong.

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    As a generalisation; not to the same extent, no.
     
  9. anaemic

    anaemic she touch your penis?

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    meh the point is american ground forces are inferior soldiers, because theyre afraid to die.
    whilst this could easily be said for australians english etc too. it doesnt work so well on fanatical bastards, ie the vc, japan in wwII, and probably places like North korea today. which is why theyll always have a distinct advantage, lots and lots of technology can help you out but itll never overcome it entirely.
     
  10. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    Jaunty: YOU shutup. I am rubber, you are glue......... :lol:

    BTW, are we counting the Russians superior victory based on their excellent "soldierly skills" in their forced withdrawal from Afghanistan? Or do we chalk that one up to their "superior technology". Wait, I'll bet it's because the US backed BinLaden. :rolleyes:

    And as far as getting kicked out of Viet Nam.......didn't Australia leave in '72? I don't think they withdrew with a victory either. Especially if they "kicked the crap out of the NVA". If you are referring to the Tet Offensive as a victory for North Viet Nam, then I guess yes, it was. But after those attacks the US lost no ground and reclaimed any disputed territory including Hue and the embassy in Saigon. Besides, that was 1968, not 1973 when the last flight left Saigon. The reason that the US withdrew in my opinion, was the same reason that the US entered Viet Nam and then escalated the conflict in the first place: politics, and the strong anti-war sentiment of the time.
     
  11. Spier

    Spier 1

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    Nah, we'll stick to being historically accurate and blame it on the collapse of the Soviet Union.
     
  12. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge New Member

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    Did you watch Combat Missions? My comment was directed to Mr. Helvenston's personality (he was annoying, and liked to try to provoke people).

    At any rate, I don't see PMF as "Mercenary" ... especially the roll of these particular guys ... I see them more as glorified Mall Ninjas.

    One good thing that came out of this is that my little brother was considering taking a security job like this in Iraq (only working for a different company) ... he'd have made over $100,000 in just six months! Thankfully he's changed his mind (mom is thrilled).
     
  13. Cold Killer

    Cold Killer I will Kill Bill

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    Holy carp! Can I take his spot!?
     
  14. perrin98

    perrin98 New Member

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    Can someone explain the "leave no man behind" mentality? I'm not sure to what extent it holds. In the canadian military, if we're on an offensive (section attacks...wee!!!) and someone goes down, too bad. If you're fighting through enemy in depth, your buddy's gonna be lying there for a long time before you come back for him. Its a ****ty thing, but its the only way that makes sense.

    Can any american military tell me about this?

    Also, american combat section is 13 men? Canadian is 8, comprised of 6 rifles 2 LMG's. If you could give me the breakdown on the organisation of the american combat section, I'd appreciate it.

    Thanks guys

    -LordPerrin
     
  15. Wolf Being

    Wolf Being .

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    I'm not surprised to hear that, it was my own asessment of the whole mess too. Judging by the amount of hatred focused on these individuals, the mob must have had some idea of what they were dealing with. This happened to contractors for a reason, IMO. Or rather, it happened to contractors first for a reason. Transgressions by PMCs would run under "gunfire was heard" in the news, so it's close to impossible to keep an eye on the situation in that respect. My understanding is that Blackwater provides security for Bremer, which would indicate some higher degree of profesionalism, FWIW.

    That is technically incorrect. "PMF" stands for "Private Military Firm" (like Blackwater, MPRI, Executive Outcomes etc.). Whether they actually field a force for a certain mission is another question and determined solely by the mission itself. A PMF may easily provide no more than transport logistics for the UN, as in IIRC Congo.

    "Mercenary" usually refers to the individual for-profit venture, they are conventionally understood to be individual-based in unit of operation and thus ad hoc in organization. The distinction is important for several reasons, most notably because PMFs are not ad-hoc in nature and thus go from a political/economic factor to an actual actor/entity.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2004
  16. jaunty

    jaunty If you disagree with me, you're wrong.

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    Yeah, ok, so they're the firm who send out the mercinaries. Same difference.

    The rates those guys get paid are awesome. The US Army is actually getting a little worried about it, because all of the special forces guys are transferring over as soon as they've fulfilled their military commitments.

    The Army just can't match those rates, not even at the inflated salaries that they pay special forces. I've heard reports of some ex-gurkhas (of course, Gurkhas aren't american, but this particular one was employed by an American firm) getting around the $1300 US a day mark for what's basically glorified guard duty inside the green zone. Sounds like good work if you can get it. So good in fact that it's actually rekindled my interest in military service at something more than a reserve level.

    I was reading what was supposedly a first hand account of the PMFs in Iraq from a Marine who's stationed over there on another forum. I'll see if it's cool for me to repost it here for you guys. It sorta confirms the idea that they're all a bunch of gun toting meatheads who embody everything bad about the army, only they get paid alot more and don't have any of the good qualities like shutting the fuck up instead of starting street fights.

    And yeah, you're probably right about their role being more mall ninja than anything else. The hardest job they have is basically keeping Bremer alive, which when you think about it, isn't all that hard considering the Marines and Army are both helping them do said job. God knows that all reports seem to confirm they have the attitude of a mall ninja.
     
  17. Cold Killer

    Cold Killer I will Kill Bill

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    "Mall ninja" is a full-fledged expression?
     
  18. Wolf Being

    Wolf Being .

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    Not to revive this thread, but this article offers some more insight and IMO correct deductions:

    http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/opinion.cfm?id=382692004

    edit: since they apparently take them down after a week, here goes in full. Sorry about the mess:

    Sun Apr 4 2004

     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2004
  19. cracwhore

    cracwhore I'm a video game review site...

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    The lesson to be learned is to carry a few extra mags with you if you're in the Coalition. Time for some corpse raping. One thing's for sure...you can't reason with religious fanatics (Christians as well, aka, the Nazis). That's why we need to build a cyborg, like the Terminator. We send out one of those in there, he rips some bodies up into chunks and takes an RPG to the chest like a man...bot. Manbot. Then he gives the remains a proper Christian burial. I bet that would scare them and make them think twice about the things they do. But right as they learn the lesson, we just drop a nuke on the town and kill everything! YEAH! Then a ninja stands on top of the ashes and plays the US Anthem on his sweet electric guitar. Then we have Galliger come out there, smash some perfectly good food and to top it off, have Jay Leno show up and performs some stand-up. This, ladies and gentlemen, is the evolution of the USO show.

    Seriously though, we need to interview the Iraqi citizens one by one. Ask them, "Would you shoot that US soldier/merc/citizen over there, mutilate his body and play with his gibs strictly because of your religious beliefs and not because of what they did to you personally, such as, murdering and raping your family in front of you?" If they answer "Yes! Praise Allah!" You shoot them in the head. Problem solved. See, it's not racial like "shoot all of those stinkin' arabs!", it's "advanced natural selection". Then we come back to the States and do the same thing with our crazies. But really, when you get right down to it, the US doesn't have many crazies left. the KKK has pretty much lost their strength and the neo nazis were always a joke. Aside from your religious fanatics and normal idiots, we're ok.

    CK, yes, lynchings still occur from time to time. But you have to be in the "deep south" for that to happen. Don't ask me what "deep south" means exactly. It's just a term that a lot of my redneck teachers use. It obviously means "Primarily white, racist states/counties/towns", but as to the location of this "deep south", you're asking the wrong fella.

    (ninja on guitar idea stolen from "Real Ultimate Power")
     
  20. das_ben

    das_ben Concerned.

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    Not sure if it has been posted before, but this is what Bill O'Reilly has to say about the matter:

    You gotta love the choice of words... 'final solution'.
     

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