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Europe should get rid of U.S. ambassadors

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Benfica, Mar 9, 2012.

  1. Firefly

    Firefly United Kingdom is not a country.

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    pff. I do not fail to understand. I do understand how millions of people have been subjugated, oppressed, murdered and tortured all in the name of religion both extreme or otherwise.
     
  2. Jacks:Revenge

    Jacks:Revenge ╠╣E╚╚O

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    right but you said that such behavior describes Islam with the clear implication that you meant all of or at least mainstream Islam when that simply is not true.
     
  3. Benfica

    Benfica European Redneck

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    Yeah yeah, sure. But do YOU make that distinction regarding Republicans or Christians or do you mock/troll them all?
    The point is using _anything_ as an excuse to harm others or push asinise garbage into a society and get away with it. Nobody in theory is blaming people by association. There are different kinds of Islam, however the one promoted in Europe is PRECISELY the worst, the Saudi Wahabi. So Firefly is 100% correct in telling it how he sees it. From "The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life":

    http://www.pewforum.org/Politics-an...e-West-A-Conversation-with-Bernard-Lewis.aspx

    Now, at an higher level, why is the U.S. supporting such a charade? Amongst others that you can read in the previous article (including the fall of Ottoman caliphate in 1923), I suspect that this is what comes closer:

    http://ftmdaily.com/preparing-for-the-collapse-of-the-petrodollar-system/
    In bold are the countries where the famous Arab Spring was not allowed to happen.

    The article is easy to read, but you can find this in Wiki and 70's newspapers, so don't bring me the "conspiracy theory" rubbish. In short, the agreement :
    Of course, Kissinger ingenuity and the way that the U.S. has been getting a massive welfare check from the rest of the planet would just make me laugh histerically (clever fuckers!), if it weren't for the minor side effect of destroying the life of millions of people in the process.

    Again, assuming that is true, it explains a lot of today's events, doesn't it? So Jacks, FIRST of all avoid being wasteful and materialistic, become even an activist. Second, go to Saudi Arabia and use your "freedom of speech". THEN accuse me of being intolerant with Islam

    Regarding the U.S., what I'm saying is this. Europe has a LOT of tolerance for U.S. bullshit, and the other way around too, like cousins of a sort. If you want to know what the Europe and U.S. public and leaders really think of each other, despite the rants, read this PDF But the U.S. pushing forward this petrodollar agenda or whatever forces this pandering to this virulent Islam will not end well
     
  4. Israphel

    Israphel Sim senhor, efeitos especial

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    True. Point taken, but your experiences of Islam have clearly been very different from mine. For the record, I'm completely athiest.

    Well, because you are, once again, tainting all the people who subscribe to the second most popular religion on the planet with the same brush, and I'm attempting to show that that's not a fair or balanced thing to do.
    Here's a small example from this weekend's news, you probably read it. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/11/us-soldier-killing-afghanistan-children?intcmp=239
    In brief, US soldier in Afghanistan goes postal and shoots 16 civilians, nine of them kids, three of them women. This after US soldiers had been burning the Qu-ran in their barracks in Afghanistan.
    What does this tell you about America and it's way of life?
    It tells you nothing. Nothing at all, except that the US, like every other country and culture on the planet has it's fair share of idiots and psychos. Can I use a story like this to define America? Can I even find lots of other examples and attempt to use them to paint of picture of the US, it's people, the way they treat each other and outsiders? What they want from their lives?
    No, of course I can't.

    But if this story were reversed, if it were a group of muslim college kids in the US were burning bibles, and a muslim guy went crazy and shot 16 western civilians in their beds, I'm willing to bet that we'd be hearing all about the evils of Islam, what a twisted culture it is that breeds that kind of behaviour, and people not so different from yourself would be posting it on forums, using it to paint an entire culture that consists of around a billion people as a threat.

    I know it's pointless and a waste of time even typing this, you cling so passionately to this hatred that you have, that I doubt anything could ever change your mind.
    So I'll end here and go and do something more productive. Enjoy your thread.
     
  5. Jacks:Revenge

    Jacks:Revenge ╠╣E╚╚O

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    why yes, yes I do.
    just because I'm not religious and just because I vote Democrat doesn't mean I immediately cast all Christians and GOP'ers into the same trash bin.

    I realize that extremes don't represent the mainstream.
    not all Christians want to force their beliefs into public legislation. not all Christians presume that the Bible is a literal, historical document. the ones that do actually represent the minority despite the fact that they're also the most vocal (usually). the same can be said of extreme views amongst Republicans; the most vocal insanity (such as that coming from the current GOP candidates) does not represent the core of the party.

    the core of the party has its own problems - such as a total lack of leadership - allowing the party to be hijacked by the extreme Religious Right. but I'm well aware that the average, Republican-voting citizen is not reflected by the current state of affairs.
    I know plenty of people (family and friends) that are devout Christian and/or vote Republican on principle but who have no problem with access to contraception, abortion in certain cases, marriage equality for same-sex couples, sensible regulations in the private/financial/industrial sector, environmental conservation, secular public schools, stem cell research, gender equality in the workplace, and on and on.

    for every extremist in any given group there's at least a few more reasonable people who just don't speak as loudly... except for maybe the Neo Nazi's and KKK. they're pretty much 100% batshit :lol:
     
  6. Mister_Prophet

    Mister_Prophet .

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    Wherever people live, crazy people live there too. News at eleven!
     
  7. Jacks:Revenge

    Jacks:Revenge ╠╣E╚╚O

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    oh and since we're on the topic of a particular middle-East religion... I even have a few close friends who practice Islam.

    Kamran and Mahrouf I met in high school.
    their family is Islamic to the bone and by extension so were they. but aside from the color of their skin (and the way they styled their hair lol) you couldn't tell them apart from any other suburban white kid. they were normal as normal could be and by extension so was their family. aside from praising Allah before dinner they were like any other middle-class American household.

    both of their mothers had jobs and wore clothes from JC Penny and Dillards and shit.
    they weren't oppressed by their husband or forced to cover their heads. Kamran's sister openly dated guys at school (white guys too!) and I bet if she accidentally got herself knocked up they would have fully supported her. they might have been a little upset, but they wouldn't take her outside and stone her to death for causing shame.

    in college I dated a girl named Alina whose family was from the United Arab Emirates.
    once again they were all straight up Islam, and once again they were also straight up normal.

    you can't judge anything in this world by only judging it's most radical outliers.
    Prophet said it with less words ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
  8. Cobra

    Cobra Member

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    Right one dude!
     
  9. Benfica

    Benfica European Redneck

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    Are all Catholic priests pedophiles? Were all Communists USSR supporters? Do all rappers promote hate speech in their lyrics. No. However, am I not allowed to criticize the Catholic church, Communists and urban musicians?

    I thought it was pretty clear when I mentioned Muslim men living in Europe (now, let me add committing what is considered a crime under European law). How much deeper do you want me to discriminate and what do you want me to say? How am I dissing "all the people who subscribe to the second most popular religion on the planet" (except when I talk about Islamic Imperialism)? Crimes are still crimes, do we need to hire Texans to claw us back from social ultra-relativism and do some "clean up"??? Be sure that Europeans at times needed to be MUCH more like the United States cousins

    The major differences between criminals that read the Quran and the avg petty criminal, is that crimes are much more brutal, are agaist people instead of property, and they use an ideology as an excuse to justify even the most obtuse actions.

    Muslim communities have very valid reasons for not wanting to integrate in so called "Western values" (like booze, drugs, hate filled music, and a few others), but unfortunately we've seen this before. Communism, Fascism and other isms may have sounded okayish back in the days, but we know how it went: inspiring, useful or necessary ideas -> frozen into dogma -> blindly applied over people -> shit happened.

    I don't really care what is said, but the Islamic Supremacism movement will not go away by itself. I can be very wrong of course, but I also pity the fools that underestimate the (even multi-generational) intelligence of foreign people, what they endured, even if they look backward or weird.

    I will change my mind if you answer this question: what is/was the British Army doing in both Iraq and Afghanistan?
     
  10. Sir_Brizz

    Sir_Brizz Administrator Staff Member

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  11. Iron Archer

    Iron Archer Holy ****ing King of Trolls

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    http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Analysis/Outside-View/2012/04/03/Outside-View-Failing-to-heed-the-Zombie-Prophet-Mohammed-warning/UPI-40961333449000/?spt=hs&or=an"]Failing to heed the 'Zombie Prophet Mohammed' warning

    and
    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Islam's Latest Contributions to Peace
    "Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless
    to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" Quran 48:29

    2012.04.03 (Nahri Sarraj, Afghanistan) - Two civilians and four police are poisoned and shot by the Taliban.
    2012.04.03 (Gari Bagh, Pakistan) - At least six people die from shrapnel injuries after a sectarian grenade attack on a Sunni rally.
    2012.04.02 (Quetta, Pakistan) - Sunnis barge into a shoe store and gun down two Shia.
    2012.04.02 (Pattani, Thailand) - Two Buddhists are shot to death sitting in their pickup truck by Mujahideen.
    2012.04.02 (Dujail, Iraq) - Four truck drivers are kidnapped, strangled and burned by Muslim terrorists.
    2012.04.02 (Kandahar, Afghanistan) - Taliban marketplace bombers kill two and wound two dozen others.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012
  12. Israphel

    Israphel Sim senhor, efeitos especial

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    Fair enough, but I still disagree with you, and as Jacks said above, despite meeting and working alongside many Muslim men living in Europe, I still haven't met a single one who conforms to the picture you paint of them. While I agree that crimes like honour killings etc are brutal and should be punished to the full extent of the law, I disagree with your point that muslim crimes are "more brutal" and "against people instead of property". There are pages and pages of evidence printing in newspapers every day that should convince you that white westerners are every bit as capable of brutality against their fellow man as muslims are.

    You say that they use ideology as an excuse...maybe, but a crime is still a crime, and when you look at almost any crime committed, the person who committed it at some point deludes themselves with a justification as to why it's OK. This is a whole separate issue, the self justification people tend to give themselves to do things that are fundamentally wrong (have a read at some of the justifications that the London rioters gave last year for destroying people's livelihoods and small businesses in their own community), but ultimately I don't see a difference whether someone commits an act of brutality because they're drunk and feeling a bit aggressive or if they think they're serving their religion. They're both equally wrong, and it's misguided to blame the religion for that because the vast majority of followers of that religion (and yes, I'm talking about European muslims now) don't support such actions.

    Let me put it another way. In our society, when someone does something terrible, for example the US soldier on the link in my previous post, or the London riots, or any number of rapes, murders or whatever, we almost always blame the individual and see them as not fitting into our societal system.
    They may have reasons or justifications, like poverty or whatever, but we still see criminals as individuals who fail at society. There may be some passing articles published, some hand-wringing about how society has failed and/or created these people, but generally, we don't pay them too much attention because, after all, I live in the same society and I don't go out and kill/rape/steal etc. No, we blame the individual and put the crime down to the failure of the individual.
    However, with muslims, that's (often subtly) not the case. When a muslim commits a terrible act, we tend to blame the religion that created that individual as much as the individual himself. Admittedly he may often make that easier for us by using Islam as an excuse, and the media in general lap this up and report it. We tend to see these people less as individual failures (although, that's how most of the musilm community see them) and more as a product of their religion. We don't look at them like we do the western criminal, who has failed DESPITE society and is an exception who doesn't fit in, we see them almost as the norm, and as a product of their culture that commits these acts BECAUSE of their culture. Do you see the difference?

    As for muslims for hiding behind an ideology to commit crimes. The whole War On Terror is an ideology that the west hides behind to commit atrocities and kill hundreds of thousands of people. Why is that different?

    I accept that you believe these people are a threat, that's fine, I can see your not going to change your mind, but personally I see the whole western foreign policy towards the middle east as a greater threat to my freedom and liberties, which I have seen gradually eroded over the last 10 years or so in the name of the war on terror.

    Not sure what your point is here, but basically the British are doing what they've done pretty much since the Thatcher era in the 80s. Aligning themselves with the US when it comes to control and access to the world's resources, either through direct intervention, or by the installation/protection of western friendly governments in the area (for example, the House of Saud) in order to maintain that control and access. It has nothing to do with freedom, democracy or terrorism. And certainly nothing to do with religion.

    Will you change your mind now I've answered your question ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  13. Firefly

    Firefly United Kingdom is not a country.

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    Unfortunately the left wing will still not see it.
     
  14. Balton

    Balton The Beast of Worship

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    u dum
     
  15. Firefly

    Firefly United Kingdom is not a country.

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    I rest my case
     
  16. ambershee

    ambershee Nimbusfish Rawks

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    There were more terrorist incidents in the UK last year than in Afghanistan. Unfortunately the right wing will ignore it.
     
  17. Firefly

    Firefly United Kingdom is not a country.

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    And those terrorists followed which religion?

    this is too easy.
     
  18. Balton

    Balton The Beast of Worship

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    you see six dates of incidents and you condemn an entire people, yes you better rest your case, shovel your own grave and get it over with.

    you may call yourself atheist but in my eyes you're just a fundamentalist.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
  19. ambershee

    ambershee Nimbusfish Rawks

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    Why, Christianity, of course.

    Edit: Except one - which was only an 'arrest of terror plot suspects'.

    14.1.11 - Parcel Bomb in a post office (Belfast)
    18.1.11 - Bomb explodes in guildhall (Derry)
    21.1.11 - Bomb defused outside barracks (Queen's Officer Training Corps)
    25.1.11 - Car Bombing defused outside police station (Antrim)
    26.1.11 - Pipe Bomb defused (Carnlough)
    8.2.11 - Bomb defused; found attached to childs bike (Belfast)
    16.2.11 - Pipe bomb defused (Magherafelt)
    25.2.11 - Bomb defused outside restaurant (Hove)
    2.3.11 - Drive by shooting aimed at police officers (Derry)
    29.3.11 - 200lb bomb defused outside Courthouse (Derry)
    2.4.11 - Police Car bombing (Omagh)
    9.4.11 - 500lb bomb defused on busy motorway roadside (Newry)
    26.4.11 - Letter Bomb heading to Scotland defused.
    9.5.11 - Grenade thrown at police (Derry)
    21.5.11 - Bank bombed (Derry)
    23.7.11 - Fire Bomb defused outside football stadium (Belfast)
    22.8.11 - Bomb defused outside of bank (Newry)
    14.9.11 - Bomb defused outside Army doctor's house (Claudy)
    16.9.11 - Bomb thrown at police (Newtownabbey)
    17.9.11 - Rocket attack on police (Craigavon)
    19.9.11 - 7 people (I assume muslim) arrested on Terror Plot charges (Birmingham)
    26.9.11 - Car bomb defused (Derry)
    1.10.11 - Bomb defused in city center (Belfast)
    13.10.11 - Bomb defused outside City of Culture Offices (Derry)
    15.10.11 - Two bombs defused in residential areas (Belfast)
    13.12.11 - Bomb defused outside police station (Keady)


    So yeah, there you have it. The difference is the nature of the attacks; our terrorists aren't suicide bombers (giving time for defusal or controlled detonation by bomb experts) and tend to have specific targets.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
  20. Benfica

    Benfica European Redneck

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    A long reply deserves equivalent effort to address the points made, but I'm very tired to do so. Israphel, I have to say that Portugal has no moral or financial burden over the colonization of "Muslim" lands. The Portuguese have no remorse, shame, guilt regarding Arabs. We do have with South America and Sub-Saharan Africa yes. I will not pussyfoot around regarding Muslim men and will always tell it how I see it. Perhaps it is you that feel aflicted. Read about British colonial history and try again.

    Still, I will have to answer this part now and then rant a bit more
    There wouldn't be a difference if the bolded part was true.

    The War on Terror is an ideology on reaction to the 9/11 terrorist attacks that killed women, children and men in New York and other locations. United Statien individuals are at least as valuable as anyone else, despite the current and recent past toxic and agressive external policy of this country. This motivated war in Afghanistan, and it can be considered self-defense, even if one tries to ignore blowback theories. The "West" owes a LOT to the United States, but IMHO also plenty to the Mujahedin for helping to dismantle the Soviet Empire. Ironic how it turned out.

    "commit atrocities and kill hundreds of thousands of people" is (neo-)colonialism, the continuation of the British (and Portuguese and French and Ottoman/Muslim and Roman... ) Empires. Kill, enslave, plunder and other atrocities using ever more elaborated and contrived excuses. This motivated war in Iraq. Perhaps in the 60's, the USA got tired of remediating other people's mistakes. Some European countries should respect USA and the people a bit more. Others should be able to say what it needs to be said even with agressive tone. For example, it was Nixon and the NSC that started the Portuguese colonial war. While Portugal started trans-atlantic slave trade around 1450 and under Portuguese dictatorship there were hundreds thousands of deaths caused by Portugal (20th century only), with rushed de-colonization, the NATO vs Warsaw pact Cold War and proxy wars, and inter-ethnic struggle lead to 2+ million deaths just in Angola.

    What I have to say about the USA, is that it was perpectuating the evils done by the ancestors (Part of Europe + part of Arabic + Natives + a few more). I guess it still the best civilization that humanity has accomplished, but has become a very terrible empire. Even though I like some Socialism, I don't even have words for how ill I think of the Soviet Communist Party, so you have to see that in the light of how plenty the USA has contributed for me to be free to point my accusatory finger to America. People will learn to forgive the USA with the pass of time if they lead by positive examples and make a genuine effort to remediate misdeeds.

    There's something else. If there is a conflict with Islam, I don't want the USA children to fight my wars. I'm afraid to die but I don't want to keep my "western lifestyle" at the expense of other people's children. Europe needs to figure out how to remediate the USA, so that they can focus on peace, family life, space exploration and more inspiring Unreal Tournaments ;) If Europeans want to be safe, they have to gradually stop dreaming about being metrossexuals and football stars.



    I have to confess one thing. People like me believe they can change the world, regardless of how much time it takes and space it requires. I know the dangers of believing too much on my own grandiose ideas, if not, I read history books. So I don't want to freak out and probably go back to rural work for a while. I'm not in the mood to be thrown into a jail just for having misaligned and strange ideas. I honestly should write a book to say it like I see it. For example, I hope that the XXI century is the century for:

    - Phsyical, moral, financial, social remediation without lame excuses. Remediation is not zero-sum, don't burden this generation with all the misdeeds of the ancestors. That's just recycling the problem. Besides, atrocities do not "expire" but they attenuate with time.
    "Muslims" are mostly victims but Muslim men are also agressors. Sub-Saharan Africans are example of people that deserve remediation and "positive action". This includes black people elsewhere, but surely not persistent bling niggaz, male bullies and thugs. Before a dude being dark brown, pink or any other variation, he is a man with rights and duties.
    - Use of Earths resources wisely. Remediation of man-made disasters (ecological, warfare, overexploitation, etc...) referenced in the Bible, Quran and other books.
    - Separate God from religion. Learn from those books that Christ and Muhammad weren't so infalible after all. They were "messengers of God" if you wish. Wanting to become a modern days Muhammad clone is also idolatry of a man. Learn from what the "messengers of God" did right and avoid and remediate what they did wrong. These sacred books need updating for the off-planet Space exploration era.
    - Admit once and for all that all humans can make mistakes but have to carry a burden for it. None for children(just education), some for teenagers, a bit larger for women, more for men. The burden becomes lighter, given time.
    - Don't try to distort what is encoded in our DNA. If a dude is gay, poor, Jewish, disabled or (non-)believer in God, accept that as a "just different" condition. That said, there are absolutes to respect. FFS, a man is still a man! The #1 purpose of a woman's breasts is breastfeeding babies and are not to be filled with plastic except for health reasons! The best way to educate a child is still with a man and a woman, so gays can marry but mostly will have to conceive their own babies with a trusty friend of the opposite sex. A very kind gay dude can't stand heterosexual sex with a very friendly lesbian, tough luck!
    - Compromise. Some want to go to Heaven, others want Heaven on Earth. I'm pretty sure that desert tribes idea of a paradise is living a long and healthy life in an oasis. Others wouldn't mind living very long lifes on board of a spaceship. Others yet, would just love a structured family, live long and die in peace without suffering. We (adults, mostly men) need to change a lot, and keep believing it's worthwhile to change, while keep believing in Space adventure. Perhaps there will be a way for ressurect ourselves with technology. But we must stop killing people and other creatures for futile reasons.
    - If someone is ready to try to explore Space in one way trips, maybe they should be allowed to do so. If today there are people ready to die for a cause, this is a better one than wearing explosives around the waist or throw planes into buildings.
    - If you really want a New World Order or very extreme transitions, ask children and women for advice and take at least a decade to do the first 30% of the job.
     

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