EAS night?

[OpFor]

Since everybody seems to want to play TDM lately...I figured it might be a good idea to have an EAS night so server admins know their servers are still being used. This whole TDM thing is really quite confusing, first you people complain 2.9 isnt out fast enough...then you switch back to TDM?
But seriously, I would like to atleast play ONE eas game with in the next month. Maybe we could schedule a weekend that is fairly good for all?

 

[gal-z]

I think there should be a server that only includes small and therefore relatively easy EAS maps. And this server would better be playable for me ping-wise
The biggest problem with EAS is that people don't know the maps (especially me) and that maps are pretty damn big and include a lot of walking around (which also helps the first part of the sentence).

 

[Lynxz]

for anyone whos just getting to grips with inf. I think the only reason for maybe choosing TDM over EAS is that you can`t really screw up on TDM..lol...whereas with EAS you need to know the maps inside out to play them well....if I`m not sure (which is most of the time atm...lmao...) I tend to tag along with someone else...but even then you`re not too sure whether you`re helping the support, or going in to the objective itself as you don`t know the map it also follows you won`t know what you should be doing in your location, mind you ALL of this assumes that people are working as a team, its very rare to be contacted ingame by anyone you`ve not "met" or chatted to before concerning covering fire or working together etc. After spawning everyone just seems to run like hell in different directions...no contact... probably `cos they know the maps well I admit, but if you don`t you`re a bit screwed and toddle along like a headless chicken looking for cover... I have one squad mate and we use TS when we`re both on which is excellent, but without TS in a team based objective game like EAS you can sometimes tend to feel as though you`re just along for the ride, when I was ghosting once I saw a team work very well together...proper extraction, two covering, two moving etc. probably all in the same squad with TS tho .....but it was nice to watch,
a friend of mine played Black Hawk Downs new addon in a american server and was amazed at the organisation BEFORE the game kicked off, everyone knew what they were doing, medics were asigned etc etc. he couldn`t believe it and said the game was so much more enjoyable as you felt part of the squad, and that was his first time on the server....
if you were going to play EAS on certain nights it could be an idea to list the maps that are going to be used a few days in advance, so anyone who doesn`t know them will have time to do a bit of homework.....

 

[Exar]

The INForcers Euroserver is running EAS only and is filled almost every night.....
And no, you can't get a TDM night there...

 

[Midwinter]

When you talk about TDM, you mean DTAS? I know SG server used to have DTAS, and if it is being used you can be sure I'll play more often (only thing preventing me to play more is I have to hunt down all the maps in some CDs scattered somewhere around here) . Nothing can beat random spawns

 

[geogob]

no, he means TDM... I don't understand either what's all the sudden TDM outburst. At least DTAS would be better IMO.

 

[keihaswarrior]

Ya, TDM sucks.

I don't see why people complain about not knowing the EAS maps. If you don't know the maps, then just make your way toward the objective on the compass.

TDM is worse because if you don't know the map, then you may end up wandering around without seeing anyone at all. At least in EAS, you know where to go (whether or not you know the map).

Besides, learning the maps is pretty easy. It only took me a week when I first got 2.9 to feel like I had a handle on knowing what to do.

DTAS would be fun once Crowze releases a version with a working waypoint at the objective.

 

[Lynxz]

I ain`t complaining mate...but I`ve got 55 EAS maps atm....and if you can manage to learn (and find the time to learn!!) that amount of maps in one week I take my hat off to you ...lol...thats an awful lot of spare time you must have, or else a very good job...and I have grasped the use of a compass thanks, but what I was trying ...actually thought I had ....to say was that for some people (not all) who are just getting used to it all, getting involved in a team based game i.e. EAS game...that isn`t usually all that "team focused" or noob friendly, (note: not implying that anyones unfriendly just the situation) unless they know someone in the server, could be put off, compared to a TDM...where, providing you`ve played FPS online before you should be able to hold your own...just treat the whole map as the kill zone!!!

 

[keihaswarrior]

Well, I didn't learn all the maps perfectly, just enough to know what to do/where to go. Also, while there may be A LOT of maps, very few of them are anything more than go get cd, go to extract.

Another thing -- What's stopping you from playing the EAS maps as if they were TDM? If you don't know what to do, just wander around and play as if it were TDM. I don't see what's stopping you from doing that.

Lastly, I feel for ya on trying to get some teamwork. There are several large obstacles making teamwork somewhat difficult to accomplish.
1. Many of the players are clueless newbs who have no idea what they are doing. Even if you take the time to communicate a plan to them, they won't know what you are talking about.
2. Organizing a team is hard to do when you must type out all the messages while you are under fire.
3. Not everyone wants to be a teamplayer. Even if they can understand a plan you are trying to organize, they might simply ignore you on purpose.

-- Even with all these things making teamwork difficult, go play on the GD server and hop on teamspeak with everyone. You will be hard pressed to find better teamwork.

 

[cracwhore]

Somebody should take down Shan's TDM server.....I'm not saying how...or who. But somebody should...wink...

 

[geogob]

Maybe we could try to slashdot it

 

[gal-z]

Yeah what's up with TDM? EAS is a much better playstyle since there's something that forces contact between you and the enemy. You can't play it like a TDM though, because you'll end up losing due to not defending the CD or not finding it. Which, BTW, happends when the map is big and u don't know it well. Compass is often quite helpless in that area.

 

[Lynxz]

...only really played EAS maps online, TDM doesn`t really do much for me....its nice to have a goal to aim for rather than just going around looking for targets ...however its also a BIG pity that as you say some people seem to play EAS with no idea of, or motivation to play as it should be played ...as a team, which again isn`t helped if you`ve got to type a lot of messages, but I`ve tagged with people in games and covered their movements etc, as thats the way I`ve always played, and they just don`t acknowledge you....or worse and more worrying they don`t even notice they`ve got a team mate in tow I`m guessing clan/squad matches in the inf.leagues will be a little more interesting

 

[shan]

I guess I will be the rat in the crowd. I love TDM. I have played both TDM and EAS. I ran an EAS server originally along with TDM but downed it when no one was playing on it.

Now, let me be clear here, I do not hate EAS. I just like TDM better. Why? Well, for one, I find EAS boring a lot of the time. You spend 5 minutes running from one side of the map to the other. Play there for a few minutes. Get killed. Sit for another minute until the wave timer kicks in and run for 5 more to get back to the action and get killed. Wash, rinse, repeat. Want to draw more players? Respawn them close to the front lines. Maps like LondonCity are much more fun because you get back into the action fast. I do not mind if the game is slow and methodical once I get there...I just want to get there.

Other issue is definately the learning curve on the map. It takes an investment in time to learn the maps well. EAS is not a game you come play for 20 or 30 minutes between real-wrld tasks and get very good at it. I can give a good example. Ruin was one of the worst play experiences I have ever had. Not because it was a bad map. It is georgous. I love it and it would be a blast with DTAS (BTW, for anyone wondering, I had never played DTAS until the new 2.9 Crowze version). It sucked because it was so confusing that, by the time I got my bearings, someone who was crowched behind some debris had killed me.

TDM is great becasue you drop right into the action. The game varies from extremely fast-paced (for Infiltration) to slow and tactical. A lot of it depends on the players you have on-line. The maps are a good balance between being small enough to keep everyone in play and move the games along and not so small that you die the moment you spawn ))

And with Random Team Starts, the maps have more playability. Sure EAS is fun but no matter how good a game is, you can only do the same tasks over and over so many times. That is the problem with task-driven games...they get repetitive. Much more so, in my opinon, than TDM.

The above is only my opinion. I know there are those who feel EAS is perfect. It is just not the perfect game for me. Where some ppl play EAS a lot and slum over on my TDM server once and a while, I am the opposite.

Want my recipe for a successful EAS:

1. Very good code so you could get 40 people into the game. My server could handle 40 people if the code didnt kill the CPU at 22. Imagine a map like Jerusalem with 40 people. Much more run. Spread the battle to fill the maps.
2. Random team starts. Even if they were not truly random but rather each map had 10 for each side, each with its own sniper actors, etc. Snipers spawn killers would be avoided by creating a safety radius for each spawn point so that a player would have, say 30 seconds where, as long as they were in this radius, they would get notified they were under fire but would not get hit. The radius would need to be large enough to allow the player to get to some cover. After 30 secs (customizable by the mapper) the radius would no longer protect them so there would not be a worry about the map having fake safe zones players could hide in. And, if all the cover spots are camped so you cannot get to a safe place after your spawn then call your surviving teammates back from their objective to clear the spawn area.
3. When you respawn, the game should recalculate which spawns to take you to based on where the action is (either by looking a player locations) or by having scripted locations based on where the goals are.
4. Random goals. Every map should have some sort of randomness in the goals.
5. And last, get out of the mode of "I am creating this game and you will play it my way or you will not play it." Guess what, many people won't play it. A game has to be enjoyable for everyone. I truly beleive more people would play EAS, if there had been a newbie mode. Something to ramp people into it.

Above you ask why people are moving to TDM more and more. EAS is getting played out. When DTAS is released, it will get worse. Many of your EAS players really want to be playing DTAS. When you put DTAS on those huge, pretty maps, EAS is going to get less and less play.

This phenonomon is also not specific to INF. Look at the original UT. People played assualt for a little while because it was the new thing. Then it dried up. They still play TDM.

Someone also made a comment like how could we play EAS after all the bitching we did about wanting 2.9. 2.9 is a HUGE, I say again HUGE improvement over previous versions for EAS and TDM alike. The new models, weapons, sounds, movement, etc. do not just benefit EAS. They also benefit TDM.

Everyone needs to face the fact that TDM is a magic recipe. Game after game bases their success on TDM. Why? You can't script a human being. You can create a game type with scripted goal after scripted goal and it will never been as dynamic as a game where the goal changes based on what the opposing team does. Scripted goals for a game to be played a certain way. When I have played EAS sometimes I feel like I am in a big game of computer tag. Running from place to place on the map only stopping to catch my breath for a few minutes before running off again.

OK, my rant is over. Hope I don't offend any of your EAS suppoters. As I said, this is just my opinion. If you love EAS, more power to ya. The best thing for INF is for us all to enjoy playing it. If players are having a good time with TDM, then I do not see where that is a problem.

Shan

 

[gal-z]

Big maps would have same problem with both EAS and DTAS - long walk before u get to the obj/enemy, unless the defenders are stupid/bored enough to run around as well.
I think EAS maps with a random or semi-random CD location and spawn/extraction points would be much better than DTAS. And, if maps are small enough, EAS in its current state would be better than DTAS.
Until some1 makes a mod or maps that have more randomness, I think servers should just include the smaller, better maps. Also the smaller maps need a shorter time limit to prevent the boring assault camping.

 

[yurch]

Everyone needs to face the fact that TDM is a magic recipe. Game after game bases their success on TDM. Why? You can't script a human being. You can create a game type with scripted goal after scripted goal and it will never been as dynamic as a game where the goal changes based on what the opposing team does.

TDM is 'based' on for sucess because it's the gametype that requires the least thought and work for development. Why balance objectives or other crap when you can just throw players in a box and let them balance themselves?

If you want popularity, you may as well look at the giant CS - which happens to be an objective based gameplay similar to DTAS. Bf1942 is running huge lately with thier own objective based game style.

It's not nessesarily about TDM, rather than the simplicity of the objective in the first place.

 

[shan]

Big maps would have same problem with both EAS and DTAS - long walk before u get to the obj/enemy, unless the defenders are stupid/bored enough to run around as well.

I would have to disagree here, at least in the way I plan to run it on my server. You can use large maps but configure the Random Team spawn to keep spawns a little closer together. This give you the advantage of getting people together sooner, but also the randomness that comes with having alarge playspace that players can be randomly located in. But even more important is that there will be no respawning and only one objective. On some of the EAS maps you are running all over the map trying to complete objective after objective. In DTAS, there is one. Again that is where the biggest issue is to me, the objectives, not the map size.

TDM is 'based' on for sucess because it's the gametype that requires the least thought and work for development. Why balance objectives or other crap when you can just throw players in a box and let them balance themselves?

I am not sure that the development has anything to do with it, unless you are trying to point out why so many games use that recipe. If that is your point, I still would say that recipe is used because it works. A lot of developers do more complicated things, such as Assault, but gamers keep going back to TDM. Gamers want to have fun. What is fun to some is not to all. TDM just happens to be the "fun recipe" that tastes good to the majority of players.

It's not nessesarily about TDM, rather than the simplicity of the objective in the first place.

Absoultely, Yurch. That is one of the reasons that the recipe works. The majority of players do not have the time to invest in learning a complicated set of tasks to complete. We are there to have fun...not to work. If EAS can be presented in a form where objectives are a little more obvious and you can get into the battle quicker, I beleive it would be a huge success. There are a lot of things to love about EAS.

Shan

 

[keihaswarrior]

Let me add one more thing.

DTAS != TDM. Dtas can be very fun, tdm is very not fun.

TDM is okay when no one plays to win -- they just jump into a tiny map and run around guns 'a blazin. However, when players actually play TDM to win, the gametype quickly breaks down. There is no reason why a player shouldn't hole up in an extremely easily defended position and just wait there. They will either not be found (therefore their team will never lose) or people won't be able to kill them.

I have played TDM occasionally. I have also played to win before and was able to draw the map out into a 22 round stalemate because my team was very bad, but I was able to hide or stay alive until the 120sec timer ran out. That isn't fun.

Trying to win and trying to have fun should NOT be mutually exclusive.

 

[shan]

Well, I play between 20-40 hours of TDM per week and I can say what you described above is not how it goes...at least not on my server.

TDM is okay when no one plays to win -- they just jump into a tiny map and run around guns 'a blazin. However, when players actually play TDM to win, the gametype quickly breaks down. There is no reason why a player shouldn't hole up in an extremely easily defended position and just wait there. They will either not be found (therefore their team will never lose) or people won't be able to kill them.

I have played TDM occasionally. I have also played to win before and was able to draw the map out into a 22 round stalemate because my team was very bad, but I was able to hide or stay alive until the 120sec timer ran out. That isn't fun.

My philosophy is that there is nothing wrong with this. This is real life. People camp in battles. I agree that some players take this to the extreme because they want their team to win. I warn, kick or kick/ban any player that hides for the sole purpose of stalemating the game. And, guess what, I have never had to kick or ban a player. Warnings are usually enough and it is very rare you have to do that. Ghosting is enabled on my server but ghost spying is not allowed. When the last player is camping, however, we will send our ghosts out to find them...or I will find them and spawn a Skaarj nearby. The Skaarj will either kill em, draw them out, or create so much rucus that they will be found.

Dtas can be very fun, tdm is very not fun.

There are 12-20 players out there nearly every night who might disagree. Maybe you should give it another chance. If you don't like it however, that is OK. We all like different things. That is why I say it is important that INF continue to support both and appeal to a broader community.

[edit]BTW, I do agree that DTAS is a better game than a TDM game but I think there is room in the community for TDM, DTAS and EAS. Give people what they want and the community grows.[/edit]

Shan

 

[{GD}Odie3]

I see no reason not to have Servers that provide different Game Types. That is what we server admins are doing, provideing a service. Shan likes TDM and/or TDM DTAS. We {GD} like EAS/Specialist.

So, to rap up, can we not all just get along?