Different soldiers trained in different things

[gal-z]

I just thought of a new idea. You know how snipers train in holding their weapon steady for a long time, while LMG users are usually very strong people, but also usually bigger in size, clumzier, and aren't as well-trained in accurately aiming a weapon. SWAT officers or other special forces are trained in quickly aquiring targets in short range and shooting them instantly, but aren't as strong as LMG users and don't shoot to long ranges like snipers.
I was thinking of making an ability system, when you have a limited number of points to put in your abilities (like older inf versions has maximum credits for buying weapons). Every ability setting will be loadout-specific, so you can make a good shot with your PSG-1, or a strong guy with your LMG user.
Of course, all this is dependant on the game adding in hand-muscle fatigue for holding up a weapon for a long time, a better stamina system and an aiming system that'll include weapon "momentom" so it's harder to move heavy weapons fast while light weapons are easier to use.
Skills that can have points put in them should include stuff like:
Strength - the ability to hold a rifle up for a long time without muscle shaking, as well as the ability to use automatic fire without losing control of the weapon (reduced long-burst recoil or something).
Stability - Basically for long range shots. Unlike strength, this attribute prevents the natural movement of the weapon (standard INF 8 figure we all know).
Stamina - Long runs make you less tired and not breath as much, but doesn't affect short runs much. Also stamina recovers faster of course.
Speed - more for short sprints. Has less affect on long runs. Sprinting a long distance will still drain stamina.
Aim control - makes aiming faster and makes you move your weapon around more easily. That way you'll have an easier job killing a guy who appeared in the left side of the FOV. This attribute shouldn't affect heavy weapons much unless you also have good strength.
More stuff I've yet to come up with

Of course, this would take the game upgrades I mentioned, will probably be impossible/impractical in current INF version, and would take lots of balancing, but it would also implement the different abilities different soldiers have - an LMG user being strong while a sniper being stable with some strength, while M203ers need stamina to handle moving around with their heavier load, and CQBers need combination of speed, stamina if they wear body armor and lots of aim control.

 

[Psychomorph]

My thought on that is like my experience, that players that use a certain weapon more often are better trained in it. I use snipers and acog from very little till absolutely not. So I suck using it, I´m a bad sniper.
But I prefer CQB, I prefer carabines (not a big fan of SMG's), since carabines are lighter and give you more power to run with.


But I like your idea. I would suggest having a class selected in your menue (no not charakterclass). The menue, where you write down your name and some preferences can have a feature of adjusting your prefered charakter feature, like:
'Sniper' / 'Sharpshooter' / 'Infantry' / 'Close Encounter' / Machine Gunner'.
Sub features:
'Specialist' / 'Medic'

I would select 'Infantry', or 'Close Encounter' for myself.

Sniper
- Better scope handling, holding breath longer, reloading a sniperrifle faster, preferred sniperrifle.

Sharpshooter
- Rifle is more steady, hold breath longer, preferred battlerifle.

Infantry
- Is the overall fighter, from battlerifle, to assaultrifle, to carabine, shotgun, or SMG. Good weapon controls, good breath hold, an allrounder.

Close Encounter
- Prettymuch the same as Infantry, only that the weapon is slinged at the chest and can be hang the sling for faster CQB, very fast reload for SMG's and rifles, less sensitive for flashbangs (not to loud sound sensitivity, and less time beeing blind), good stamina, cuz trained to run with full gear (vests ...), preferred weapons SMG's, shotguns, carabines.

Machine Gunner
- Trained to handle the MG fast, can control recoil better, can run not to fast, but long enough.

Sub features:
Specialist
- Sniper, Sharpshooter, normal Infantrymen, Close Encounter, Machinegunner can set this special ability, to handle special equipment better, like bombs, mines. You carry a special equipment, which has weight and so, so choose only if needed.

Medic
- Sniper, Sharpshooter, normal Infantrymen, Close Encounter, Machinegunner can set this special ability, to treat wounds. You carry a special kit, which takes space in your inventary.



This is not a class selection, you can take every weapon you want. The differences between this charakters are minimal, but anyway present.

The Close Encounter charakter is trained to run fast with heavy vests, but that doesn´t mean he will run even faster without. The MG gunner can control the recoil, but that doesn´t mean at all, it is just about the extremes (like intensiv fullauto). A sniper just can hold breath a bit better and control the sway a bit, but not inhuman stuff in comparison to other soldiers.

I would select infantry, or CQB, but could snipe anyway and could use MG's anyway, but could not be a medic, or specialist if not set in the submenue.

That way you would just set your personal preferred preferences, but it is on you and your experience to be a real sniper, or MG user, the setting wont make it for you.

 

[gal-z]

Of course the effect of this should be small but noticed.
I was thinking of a more flexible system:
You can put up to 100 points in each, and have a maximum of 300 points.
Say if I would want to be an open ground SAW gunner, I would put:
Strength - 100
Stability - 50
Stamina - 80
Speed - 50
Aim control - 20
Now if I would want to make the SAW gunner more for CQB, I would:
Strength - 100
Stability - 20
Stamina - 60
Speed - 70
Aim control - 50
For a sniper:
Strength - 80
Stability - 100
Stamina - 20
Speed - 40
Aim control - 60
Would make very stable for long range shots and able to aim for a long time even when not prone, with a bit of ability to aim fast and run away.
CQB man:
Strength - 60
Stability - 30
Stamina - 40
Speed - 70
Aim control - 100
Would create fast aiming, fast running with a bit of running and ability to hold your weapon for a long time.

That system would let you be more flexible IMO and have everybody play more the style you want to. You could also add a stat for bombs if you want, so that they arm faster. Of course lots of balancing needs to be done between the stats. Of course, for those who don't want to mess with this, could divide the 300 points equally and have 60 in all stats for a good overall class, or choose a preset class that'll use the stats recommend for that class. Attribute settings should be loadout-specific BTW.

Just a side note, snipers don't hold breath longer, they just stabilize the weapon on the target faster and better.

 

[GR1N53N]

the issue there is that when you change your loadout, you can change your player's skillset, making it kinda pointless...

I'm a shoddy sniper, but with your system I'd just crank up the stability for my sniper loadouts and voila, instantly better... then when I wanted to go back to CQB I'd just switch to a CQB loadout, and have settings optimal for CQB... its kinda pointless cus you're optimal at whatever your loadout is all the time..

if on the other hand you had a kind of deus ex system, where your character has a set of skills that can't be changed after you've selected them, that would make more sense... but IMO it would kill inf..

 

[Psychomorph]

@gal-z:
Possible, but imo the problem is, it is too complicated, all the numbers will confuse and ppl wont check whats the point. Most even wont care about, but just play. Maybe a 3 stage adjustion would be better? Normal / Good / Excellent?

I personally would be confused with such an option. I would like just to adjust the role (sniper, mg, cqb) to have a slight advantage in certain points of your role, while you would stay an allround soldier anyway. But just Imo

@GR1N53N:
The point is not to have a person beeing one 'class' the whole time, but for the played round, in the second round you can change it, to match the gamestyle (CQB, or large distances).
The point is to be a sniper and not just grab an MG the next second and be an MG gunner.

I also don`t think it is good to limit that to your loadout, but to have a special adjustion in the menu.

 

[FieldMedic]

Last time i suggested "classes" or different abilities to reflect different trainings or specialisation , i was answered that the INF team and the majority of the community said "no".

But it was 3 years ago, i hope that this kind of suggestion will have a better success now that this "majority" of the community is not around anymore

 

[yurch]

No.

It's a throughoutly complicated and annoying system that only serves to 'fix' an extremly minor and rare issue.
There's no sense in forcing players to go through all that, it's hard enough to get started in inf anyway.

 

[Psychomorph]

Right, INF is hard enough, so it has to be simpler in some things. A 'class system' could build up some good fights, but it definitely will fail if just slapped into the game.

I was suggesting to implement a 'specialisation' to your character (name, outfit setup), to set your personal emphasis of skill to your soldier, not to choose a class.

I guess gal-z wanted the same, and not the usual class system, that I don´t want, or anybody else. Gal-z himself was saying to complianer of a team full of snipers, that snipersquads exist, so I guess a class system is not what he meant, but the ability to set special abilities you want to have (all balanced, sure).

 

[gal-z]

To make things simple for a new player you could just evenly split the attributes or choose 1 of the preset classes that automatically distribute the stats.

 

[Tiffy]

I just thought of a new idea. You know how snipers train in holding their weapon steady for a long time, while LMG users are usually very strong people, but also usually bigger in size, clumzier, and aren't as well-trained in accurately aiming a weapon. SWAT officers or other special forces are trained in quickly aquiring targets in short range and shooting them instantly, but aren't as strong as LMG users and don't shoot to long ranges like snipers....... <snip>

The short answer NO.

I feel rather insulted by the above statement. For my first 3 years in the British Army I was th section gunner. I am not very strong or bigger, clumiser or a worst shot than anyone else. In fact I'm short and squat in build (a better body shape for carrying large weights over distance), I'm quite dexterious and agile ans very fast over a short distance (although I don't run very fast over distance) and I'm an excellent shot....in fact I have never not rated marksman in my APWT and have completed sniper training. You really can't generalise about people. I know members of elite units that are only average shots but their radio or recon skills are second to none and members of 'normal' units who are every bit as good as special forces.

This would be a bad idea for INF adding unnecessary complication and not adding a jot to the realism of the game.

 

[Lord Belial]

Ummm...just out of interest Tiffy, what makes someone good with a radio? That sounds really funny to a civvy like me...

I quite like the idea, sounds pretty fun, also means you could effectively limit maps like RtK to one sniper per team etc. Having said that yurch does have a point, even though most long time INF players wouldn't mind adding more to the game it's already pretty confronting for newbies without throwing more into the mix.

 

[{GD}Ghost]

I agree with Tiffy 100%.

 

[geogob]

I also have to back up tiffy on this. Inf is already complicated enough as it is (well at least for them not playing only TDM ) That would make the learning curve even worse.

anyway...

Different soldiers trained in different things

... this is already the case in Infiltration. Serious player have they speciality as it is. They mostly use one weapon or one type of weapon and master it, while not forgetting other type of weapons too. I don't think you have to add another level of complication to this process.

 

[Psychomorph]

I feel rather insulted by the above statement. For my first 3 years in the British Army I was th section gunner. I am not very strong or bigger, clumiser or a worst shot than anyone else.

Sometimes in real life it is happening, that a mg gunner is a big guy, but it is not the rule. I saw many mg gunners and they were always normal as the other soldiers.
In cheap movies the MG gunner is always a cupboard.

In fact I have never not rated marksman in my APWT and have completed sniper training.

But are you as good as a full trained sniper? I guess not.

But here I have to agree with geogob and myself, that in INF you are better trained in a weapon you use more often. I suck with sniper and MG, but I am average with singleshot rifles and pistols.


The only thing I would like to see is less a classsystem, but a formation of a squad. As usual the riflemen, support gunner, snipers with each a rifleman.
Such stuff allready exist for example in AA:O, but it works only if the players want to, and that is the problem.

I always take the leader in AA:O and try to give commands and spot enemies and warn my mates. If not possible I always take the role of the sniper rifleman and stay close to the sniper, I love the role playing.

And the point is, if INF players want to do the same, it will work, without a class system.

The prob is that limitations are sometimes needed, cuz players mostly do what they want and that destroyes the whole fun of playing seriously.

 

[(SDS)benmcl]

This is not an area of discussion where I won't be all that thoughtfull looking at all the sides.

NO. I hate ablities in this type of game. I am a better sniper than you because I practice. If you want to be better practice. The skills are part of me and I don't need some ability system to improve yours and reduce mine. My loadouts determine my function and my raw skills, or lack there of, determine how will I use my weapons to carry out that function.

The moment you start adding abilities or some such system you are taking away from the actual skill of the player or adding something that is not really there.

 

[keihaswarrior]

I think NOT having a class system is actually more realistic. Your practice and experience with playing INF determine your skill in-game. Newbs suck with any weapon (as a very green recruit would IRL), some choose 1 or 2 weapons and master them becoming a specialist of sorts (like real life snipers and specs), and the veterans of the game can be extremely lethal with almost any weapon.

The class system would be an unecessary complicated restriction on gameplay for basically no gain that I can see. If players want classes, they will take care of it themselves.

 

[Psychomorph]

NO. I hate ablities in this type of game. I am a better sniper than you because I practice. If you want to be better practice.

If it is directed at me, than it is what I said, too.


The only thing I would wish is a well formed team, which works only with a restriction (class or whatever), if not practised by the players themself.

 

[(SDS)benmcl]

A sniper just can hold breath a bit better and control the sway a bit, but not inhuman stuff in comparison to other soldiers.

- foe example

Sorry Psychomorph call it whatever you wish you are introducing something that effects a players ability based on a decision on how he wants to play. Even at minimum you are adding or taking away from a players skill.

 

[Psychomorph]

Read the first post, I said, that players that use a weapon get better with it anyway, the 'special ability' stuff (not class) was a suggestion I would like to have at most.

To stay on topic I suggested a system, but I still prefer no class system, or similar at all.

 

[(SDS)benmcl]

Sorry Psychomorph if I missread your post. I will go over it again later. At work ATM.

Edit: My argument still stands for gal-z suggestion though. Any stat system for INF is wrong.