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Colt M1911A1

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by Ice, Jun 13, 2003.

  1. Stryker8

    Stryker8 New Member

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    hmm, don't know if this is an old thread or not i got redirected by someone (thx pred) :p

    I'm looking for someone who fires of a colt actually, he/she needs to give his/her opinion on a colt firing sound we have.
    If you wanne help out, mail me at Stryker@thethirdreich.com

    We already have a few opinions but we wanne be sure :p
     
  2. Lasersailor184

    Lasersailor184 The_Punisher

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    Rofl.


    I find it sort of funny how everyone who doesn't own a gun rags on the 1911.


    Let me get this out of the way: 9mm's blow ass and then some chunks.


    Definition of Obsolete would be something old that has been far out dated by the current technology to the point where it's use doesn't compare.


    The 1911 is not obsolete because it still works, and works quite well.
     
  3. kungpaosamuraiii

    kungpaosamuraiii HOVER TANKS

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    Ok, so the 1911 works well. So does the Mk23. There is no difference in terms of gameplay so adding this weapon would add another year or two to the development of this game.

    How about we add the XM177 to the armory too?
     
  4. Tiffy

    Tiffy Back to champion the L85

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    This I take it is from someone who has had to put his life on the line using .45ACP ammunition.

    I've taken pistols to war (thats acctual combat) on two occasion and I used 9mmPara pistols both times. The reasons are simple and expressed by the two phrases 'Ammunition Capacity' and 'Weapon Controllability'.

    I've fired .45ACP from several pistols including an M1911A1 pistol and found the round to be no better than 9mm. The pistols on the otherhand was large and clumsy and the magazine capacity small. A 9mm bullet is as capable of stopping a man as .45ACP but the weapons are generally more controllable and the magazine capacity is large enough to be useful. Having said that I don't like the Beretta (M9) as I find it's standard grip to be too large, thus putting the weapon into the .45ACP camp in that regard.

    It's all horses-for-courses but the reason people describe the M1911 as obsolete is due to it nolonger being standard issue in any of the worlds more credible armed forces. I know some are retained within the US armed forces for special use, but this doen't consititute 'Standard Issue' by any stretch of the imagination.
     
  5. Domino

    Domino < Phoenix Rising >

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    Lots of weapons in the armory currently are not standard issue... hell... some of them aren't even used by major world militaries... What exactly is your point Tiffy? If you didn't know already, Infiltration is a Special Forces sim... if it was an infantry sim, there'd be no need for a loadout system, seeing as infantry don't get to choose their weapons.
     
  6. Tiffy

    Tiffy Back to champion the L85

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    And it says this where? Do you actually know what Special Forces do? Take my word for it a Special Forces sim would be very dull. There isn't much fun in sitting in a hole someplace watching an area and reporting back movements and troop concentrations.

    People who insist the INF is a special forces sim are just showing there ingnorace as to what special forces do!! The running around, saving poor innocents acounts for anout 1% of what special forces do.

    The loadout option in INF allows a person to tailor there infanteer's role. You can be a rifleman, machine gunner, grenadeer or even a sniper with the INF loadout - all perfectly valid NORMAL infantry occupations without bringing in the 'Special Forces' tag.

    What makes INF a Special Forces sim? You tell me because its not the ability to choose your weaponry, it's certainly not the game paly and with a couple of exceptions it's not the weapons in the armoury. So what makes this a 'Special Forces' sim - do tell.
     
  7. kungpaosamuraiii

    kungpaosamuraiii HOVER TANKS

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    The weapons have been there since almost forever. They've been there for longer than INF 2.9's development so that speaks a lot. Before, the choice of weapon was just which weapon was cool and which wasn't. There seems to be a community wide push for... I guess 'milspec' weapons.
     
  8. Domino

    Domino < Phoenix Rising >

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    Infiltration is a special forces sim because of it's scale... two small teams of 5 to 10 people at most fighting against eachother.
     
  9. Tiffy

    Tiffy Back to champion the L85

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    Thats sounding very like two infanty sections. You've never been in the forces have you. A basic fighting patrol consists of an infantry section of between 6 to 12 people depending on the army your in. When you in a defensive position you might get as much as a whole platoon together, but the majority of things you do in the army are as a section.

    A company might move into an area and deploy its platoons into a defensive posistion. The platoons then send out fighting patrols to secure the area and look for enemy locations. Once the enemy is located you send in close recon patrols (guess what thats another section level unit) to determine enemy disposition and strengths. IF your mission then requires it an atack may be mounted. Although this might be as large as a battalion attack the maneouver element your going to be worried about is (you guessed it) the section.

    Fair enough in a company level attack your sections going to have support from other sections that will be around 50-100m from you. Attacks of that level have supporting artillery and other goodies and aren't really what INF is simulating. A smaller attack at platton level will probably have sections operating at 200-300m from each other with little or no supporting elements. Remember a platoon covers a frontage of around 400m in a company level assult and can be stretched to cover a lot larger frontage.

    So I reitterate, what in INF makes this a 'Special Forces' simulation? I only see fighting patrols and hasty section attacks. All very basic infantry skills and operations.
     
  10. Domino

    Domino < Phoenix Rising >

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    Why don't you ask Warren or someone who made the game and let's settle this dispute fast and easy? :)
     
  11. melagne

    melagne blah

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    Inf can hardly be called a special forces sim simply because of the scale of the battles. Why can't it represent a fight between a couple of mercenary groups? Or the remnants of two opposing forces in some apocalyptic setting? Or a civil war between a bunch of Vikings with strange Australian accents who found a pile of guns and camo in a cave somewhere?

    When it comes down to it, I don't really care what you, or anyone else labels Inf. It really doesn't matter. Inf is Inf.

     
  12. Domino

    Domino < Phoenix Rising >

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    Answer me this, what marine has the option to carry a H&K SOCOM MK2 into their mission? What marine has the option to put ACOG scopes, lasers, and M203 grenade launchers onto his standard issue rifle?

    The average soldier doesn't use that kind of equipment... but Rangers, Delta, SEALS, and Force Recon do.
     
  13. kungpaosamuraiii

    kungpaosamuraiii HOVER TANKS

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    Having the choice is just choosing your career in the army... Or at least that's what I think Tiffy is getting at.
     
  14. poaw

    poaw You used to sleep easy at night.

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    Well, to answer your question, the Marine's are testing a Designated Maksman Rifle which is simply an ACOG mounted onto a standard M16. They are issued PAC-4C Night Spotting Devices (basically a LAM) when the mission warrants it. And lastly every Fireteam leader is issued an M203.

    Why must weapon and equipment selection even have anything to do with the kind of missions the game is trying to simulate? Have you ever thought that it may be there as a result of the ongoing tug-of-war between gameplay and realism? Or maybe that "Standard" is very subjective and a lot of people don't want use some canned idea of "Standard" equipment. American Marines may not get an ACOG as basic issue with their rifles, but British Marines get something which is functionally identical with their rifles (a 4x SUSAT). The way the system works now, even if your dream weapon isn't in the game you can probably find something similar. If Tiffy really wanted to he could Put an ACOG on a SIG and pretend it's a L85.

    Really, your argument is paper thin and you should really sit down and think long and hard before you make another assumption about what the game is meant to be.
     
  15. Domino

    Domino < Phoenix Rising >

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    The key phrase being "testing"... this experimental setup of yours isn't military specification and you know it. The average Marine doesn't not use SpecOps equipment, simple as that. The military is developing bullets that can alter their trajectory, they're developing an new generation assault rifle that looks like something out of a sci-fi movie... big deal. Infiltration is about what soldiers are using today in the present.

    With all due respect, I think you should consider taking your own advice. Try thinking long and hard before you use irrelevant information to back up an already weak argument.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2003
  16. melagne

    melagne blah

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    Damn this is a stupid thread.

    Domino, you asked before that someone should ask one of the SS team what kind of a game inf is in order to settle this dumb Spec-Ops/Infantry argument. I posted the description of infiltration from the main site, which says that you can choose your equipment (from a cache of modern-day weapons) based on the kind of soldier you want to be. The description IN NO WAY DESCRIBES INFILTRATION AS A 'SPECIAL-FORCES' SIMULATION.

    How hard is that to understand?

    I feel that this Special Forces/Infantry argument is once again completely missing the point - should the 1911 be in infiltration?

    I believe that if more weapons are to be included in future released of infiltration, these new additions should be different to those entries already existing in the armoury, otherwise the considerable time and effort required to accurately model, skin, source audio, animate and code a new weapon will not add anything to gameplay.

    As it stands, from my rather ignorant (on this subject, anyway) perpective, the 1911 looks like just another pistol. With 2.9 there will be four pistols. That's enough, in my book.
     
  17. poaw

    poaw You used to sleep easy at night.

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    Ok you are right I should have thought before I posted as such I admit you are right in the facts that testing does not mean standard, even if the system was sent to Iraq. But I counter your statement about regular soldiers not using what you call "SpecOps" equipment with the fact that even though the USMC was only testing the ACOG for their designated maksman rifle the US Army has already standardized it for just such a mission.

    http://equipment.armystudyguide.com/ind_equip/equipment/acog.htm

    And beyond on that minor issue you didn't even make an effort to address any of the other (and completely seperate I might add) arguments in my post. But oh well.
     
  18. melagne

    melagne blah

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    Sure, Marines might not use all of the weapons and attatchments in the armoury, but that doesn't matter seeming that the game isn't meant to be an exact simulation of the USMC. There are other armed forces in the world.

    And Domino, you still haven't made a convincing argument for the 1911 - you seem to keep getting distracted. ;)
     
  19. spm1138

    spm1138 Irony Is

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    With Inf's weapons at the moment, you have to bear in mind that it's kind of a mixed bag of various stuff going back a long way into Inf's development.

    Inf is missing much of the stuff you'd need to make loadouts fixed like in America's Army (Russian built infantry weapons for a start).

    Perhaps in the UT2003 version they will be overhauling Inf to give us a more commonly used selection of weapons whereupon this question of allowing people to pick their own loadouts will be a bit more valid.

    I don't regard Inf as a special forces game, because the missions you perform don't seem much like anything I've ever read about special forces doing.

    I think you could make it into one with the right co-op mutie and the right map, but at the moment it's more of a "skirmish between two unspecified groups of soldiers" sim.

    Regarding the ACOG, doesn't the IDF use M16 family weapons with ACOG sights in a standard role?
     
  20. SaraP

    SaraP New Member

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    Indeed they do. The problem is that Domino wants the 1911 so badly he's willing to make *any* argument, no matter how frivolous, to argue that it belongs in the game. As opposed to just admitting that he really, really, really, really, really wants it, please please please?
     

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