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Cliff B Tweaks PC Gamers Over MIA Bulletstorm Demo

Discussion in 'News & Articles' started by hal, Jan 16, 2011.

  1. Miko

    Miko Miko No Pants

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    I think some people here are suffering from U Mad Bro syndrome.
     
  2. Sir_Brizz

    Sir_Brizz Administrator Staff Member

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    In this catch 22, the ones that need to change are not the ones buying the products. What you're suggesting is like saying I should buy cars that don't work because it convinces the manufacturers to make better cars.
    Unfortunately, you have it backwards. It doesn't matter if Epic or Rockstar care. The fact that they don't is proof that they don't care about the platform, because if they did they wouldn't make the same mistakes repeatedly and would own up to the mistakes they made with those games.
    If that is the only way, then the platform is truly doomed. I shouldn't have to buy crappy, subpar games to convince companies that it is worth putting games on my preferred platform.
    Seems like it's easier than YOU think, though. I've known a couple games that were rejected from Steam... because they wouldn't run on any of Valve's test systems or they were trying to pulled an Apple App Store and sell a game for $9.99 that was basically showing pictures of expensive jewels. I've also helped a couple of games get on Steam. Valve has a few requirements but they aren't that stringent.
    The industry doesn't think that is a success right now. Even if PC was only selling 5% of consoles (which isn't accurate, but for the sake of argument) that is still a success. That's another 5 freaking million dollars. I sure wouldn't scoff at that number, but the industry does right now.
    I've started, been involved with, and been on several indie game development teams. I know what is going on for indie studios.

    The problem is that indie studios tend to do one of two things:

    1) Go crazy with their idea and make an extremely niche game with no mass appeal that wouldn't sell even if it was insanely well marketed
    2) Copy a currently popular genre and not do it well.

    So looking at the indie development teams to determine what developing for the PC is like right now is just an all around bad idea. They are having all of the problems small startup companies always have, and tons of them fail for lots of different reasons.
    They have an obligation to anyone who consumes the products they make to make those products the best they can be. If they aren't willing to do that, then I have no obligation to give them any money for those products, and neither does anyone else. Epic is not a publicly traded company (dunno about Rockstar) so the only obligations that Epic has is to their own bottom line.
    Is it? I like lots of the 360 ports that come, and I am very forgiving of a lot of issues, but have you PLAYED Dead Space PC? I played it for about 2 hours and promptly uninstalled it because no care was given to the PC at all. Like I said in my first post, you get out of the PC what you put in. So if shoddy ports are what people are putting in, they are getting shoddy amounts of money back. That's the way an open market works.
    The signal it sends is that we don't want poorly made games. What other signal would it send? As consumers in a billion-consumer market, the only say we have is whether a company gets our money or not. Why would we just hand out money to people who show us that they don't give a crap about our money? If they did give a crap about it, they wouldn't make terrible products on our platform.
    They are targeting the same people that play FarmVille all day long. I don't know what difference that makes.
    Your split numbers make no difference for any of those games. All of them had digital sales releases on PC and none of those sales were counted in the retail sales numbers.
    Is it a fact? The fact is you can't do a very good comparison when a game tuned tot he 360 succeeds, and then is released on PC without any effort to make it a PC game at all and it fails. I think the chances of getting lucky are the same on all platforms, as long as the quality is tuned to each platform.
    Are you kidding me? Anyone I know that owns even just a Wii half the time is playing Starcraft 2 or FaceBook games or flash games or some crap. Nobody buys one thing and sticks with it anymore. It just doesn't happen.

    Of course, nobody is jumping around like an ADHD rabbit on crack like hardcore gamers do, but there is lots of things splitting people's attention, even if they have consoles and that includes casual games on the PC/Phone/etc.
     
  3. _Lynx

    _Lynx Strategic Military Services Staff Member

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    So, if a company makes their first popular game on one platform they should continue making the games for that platform no matter what? That reasoning sounds quite ridiculous for me.

    Err.. quite on the contrary, all Blizzard's games are hyped. It may not require a massive PR campaign as the games they launch are sequels or expansions to the very popular titles, but be it another WoW expansion, SC2 or the upcoming Diablo 3, a lot of first day sales are generated by hype. The hype machine is noticeable with Bulletstorm, because it's a new IP, and launching new IP in the world of sequels, prequels etc is a hard task and you need to provide a huge impulse to get any interest or hype to take off. With Blizzard's games, the hype machine is ran by fans themselves, and it's pretty much self-sustaining.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011
  4. CyMek

    CyMek Dead but not gone.

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    Maybe I'm the only one who remembers not being able to play GoW PC for a couple months because Epic set the date wrong in the exe's properties and didn't care enough to fix it until I had lost interest in the game. I won't make the mistake of thinking they care about my money again.
     
  5. Miko

    Miko Miko No Pants

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    I can agree with that statement whole heartedly. I can name an example too.

    Bungie with their Marathon franchise. It was popular with early Mac users and then instead of staying with Mac. They moved to the Xbox and made a success with Halo and look where they got today.

    A Second example would be the RE series which used to be a hardcore Sony exclusive series game by Capcom. It moved to Nintendo. Microsoft and even us PC people eventually.
     
  6. ScHlAuChi

    ScHlAuChi New Member

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    Yes they dont care about the plattform, but thats not a problem for THEM, its a problem for YOU, as YOU want THEIR games on YOUR plattform! You see the problem? ;)

    And just so you dont misunderstand me, this whole discussion is not personal - i have nothing against PC, i play on it myself regularly, but as a developer its important to see the market how it is and not like i WISH how it SHOULD be!

    If they are crappy and subpar, why do you want them in the first place?
    Just play all those superior PC games that are left :)
    Or just play WoW for the rest of your life ;)

    Yes while it is another 5 million$ this is the exception which might only be valid for high profile releases like Batman-AA for example. But for smaller low profile games the porting might cost them more than what they will earn back.

    So in other words - whatever they do, they will fail? ;)

    So if its risky for indie teams and big pubs dont bother with it, whos left? ;)
    Browsergames? MMOs?

    They do make their poducts the best they can for the market where they earn the most money, obviously PC ISNT that market currently!

    Not played, but again in the end it doesnt matter, even if it was a bad port, at least you got the game at all! I still remember the complaints from PC gamers everywhere when GoW2 didnt come out on PC. If you ppl would have bought the first one the second one would have come out too!
    And if you say it was a crappy port, then why would PC Gamers want Part2 anyway?

    As i explained before, this is the message that you want to send out - but what publishers recieve is: People complain anyway -> it doesnt make much money -> why bother?
    And if they dont get your money, no matter WHAT reason, they dont bother!
    End of story - its that simple ;)

    No it was total PC sales including digital

    A car manufacturer wouldnt optimize their cars for Luxemburg if they can sell 10 million in China :p Its all a matter of cost <-> benefit!

    And the ONLY way to change that is when PC gamers spend money again!
    Otherwise it will end in an endless downward spiral of less publishers bothering to release with even less PC Gamers to buy stuff to eventually killing the plattform for expensive hardcore games and only leaving cheap casual games, F2P games and MMOs as the only surviving option!
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011
  7. zynthetic

    zynthetic robot!

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    Surprising how far this discussion has made it debating (admittedly) fictional statistics.

    The MS security cert expired. A disaster really considering while it is fixed with a patch, I suspect a large portion of players are and will be effected by it. Not everyone follows a game closely, probably a lot less than you think and with GoW PC not exactly being much of an mp game (not any more at least) it's even less likely someone installing it will bother or much less know about patching.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011
  8. Alhanalem

    Alhanalem Teammember on UT3JB Bangaa Bishop

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    why is this thread so big???
     
  9. Miko

    Miko Miko No Pants

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    Pointing fingers at someone and calling them an issue for their opinion on something makes their opinion look stronger then yours. You're venting a lot of frustration in the conversation. Its clear as day. You can't help a platform if you're going to make the stereotype look more true and drive people away

    On top of that I believe Brizz's claim is legitimate.

    Mad fest.

    I actually don't mind debate but some people have this stagnate ideal that developers are the problem. It's moreso they cant satisfy the demand and will leave an audience to seek one that they can satisfy and gain the support of that audience. Some developers will put up with the stream of negativity and find solutions but if there is no solution to be found and its just constant whining, I can easily see why some devs are upset.

    This thread is making the console war fanboys look tame in some aspects being their arguments have no substance to them while this is very deep.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011
  10. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle spam noob

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    Heh I met a guy not long ago who was a bit of a gamer, albeit a casual one. He was almost-hardcorely into Diablo2 though, knowing the ins and outs of runewords and how dex affects blockrate and all that. He complained about how the game won't run on his new laptop, and I asked if he's got the recent patch (one had come out just days before), and he looks at me with a blank face and asks me what that is.

    Between all my family members who play games - my brother even has all 3 consoles (none of which are hooked up to the net) and games a bit on PC - the concept of updating games and let alone seeking out specific fixes is completely alien to them.
     
  11. Vaginal Epiphany

    Vaginal Epiphany New Member

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    Red Orchestra 2 and Section 8: Prejudice is all I need this year.
     
  12. q_mi_4_3

    q_mi_4_3 Target pratice for others....

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    A PC gamer will naturally want a PC dev to continue making PC games. It is not an unreasonable request, just as a XBox fan want Xbox devs to make Xbox games, and the same for PS3. Note that my request is a lot more fair; I didn't say Epic should make only PC games, but just that they release and focus on PC as they would do for consoles, while some consolers are all about demanding more exclusives titles only for their platform of choice. And Epic isn't being compromise by focusing on PC, as the PC market is still capable of making huge revenues for devs that know how to make a good PC game. So Epic would hardly be in a position to make PC games "no matter what".
     
  13. Miko

    Miko Miko No Pants

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    Quote from Michale Pachter who works stocks for companies like Activision and such is that PC gaming only makes about 15 percent of all the market revenue for the entire industry.
     
  14. q_mi_4_3

    q_mi_4_3 Target pratice for others....

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    So it isn't zero. Even if the numbers are not the same, that doesn't mean we are somehow less deserving of a good product. And PC sales is still good, if we count digital sales as well. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/30510/NPD_Digital_Trumps_Physical_In_PC_Standalone_Game_Unit_Sales.php
    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/103632-NPD-Group-Digital-PC-Game-Sales-Outpace-Retail
    A lot of indie devs manage to survive on PC alone, and thats not even with a lot of PC sales. Big devs can sell on the PC and get comparable revenue from PC for multiplatform titles. http://www.vg247.com/2010/03/06/bfbc2-servers-back-up-more-pc-players-than-each-console/
    The PC market is not the graveyard that console makers want people to believe in.

    Also, I'm not sure if Mr Patcher works for Activision, thinks he works for a stock exchange company and just analyzes stocks from companies like Activision.
     
  15. Miko

    Miko Miko No Pants

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    I never said he worked for them. I said he worked on stocks for companies like Activision. He would have to know as much as he could about the general environment to make any judgment for them. Either way the reason for the comment. because of that known fact on how much PC gaming makes. Its extremely enticing to branch out into more mainstream branches of the market.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011
  16. ScHlAuChi

    ScHlAuChi New Member

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    Im not calling him an issue for his opinion, im just saying that unless he votes with his wallet, developers and publishers wont change their opinion, especially not because a small minority of the market complains!
    is it that hard to understand?

    If Epic doesnt want their games on PC, then no discussion that were doing on here will change that - only cold hard cash will!

    The only frustration i have is how learn-resistant PC-Gamers are, demanding that game X releases on their plattform of choice and if it does complain that its not as good as it could be and boycott buying, causing more and more damage to the plattform!

    Personally i own all the plattforms, so i get to play all the nice stuff ;)
     
  17. Miko

    Miko Miko No Pants

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    You shouldn't have a problem then :p
     
  18. Sir_Brizz

    Sir_Brizz Administrator Staff Member

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    I already knew what you were trying to say, it's just wrong. Again, would you buy cars that were broken in the hope that the manufacturer would start making non-broken cars? If so, you're a richer man than I am (and more long suffering).
    Then stop ignoring the plain facts that have been presented. You CAN make money on the PC, even enough to support you.
    Even if I ignored all the terrible games on my Steam list, I would still have more than enough games to play. Regardless of that fact, the games that tend to be subpar don't HAVE to be subpar. I obviously want the game because the gameplay is fun. But it's hard to enjoy fun gameplay when everything that is supposed to be designed to help you get to playing the game is standing in your way all the time (hi UT3). Are you running out of counterpoints here or something? :con:
    Such as? Keep in mind that any UE3 game could be ported to PC with almost zero effort in terms of new development.
    Is that REALLY what you gleaned from what I said? Because that's not what I was saying at all.
    It's risky for anyone. On any platform. It's risky for browser games, it's risky for Facebook games. It's even more risky with MMOs.
    That doesn't mean it makes any more sense. If you can spend $500,000 on improving specific elements of your game for the PC and it practically guarantees an additional million in sales, why wouldn't you do that?
    The problem with Gears PC is that there were lots of reason it wasn't popular. Lots of people did buy the game on PC and they would like to have the second game, too. The ratio of people here on this message board who would want a PC version of Gears 2 is much higher than across the entire industry.
    That's exactly why I said it was a catch 22 :shake: Nobody is going to buy a poorly ported game (i.e. it won't be popular i.e. earn enough money), and publishers want their poorly ported games to sell to justify making more poorly ported games.
    No.
    I think reputation IS a benefit. Some developers do, too. The fact of the matter is, nobody is going to buy a broken car with other, working car options from other manufacturers around just to try to convince that one manufacturer to make working cars. It wouldn't happen.
    PC gamers simply aren't going to spend money when they don't see the value of the money spent. Why do you think so many games sell on PC at lower prices? Practically any game is worth $5.
     
  19. q_mi_4_3

    q_mi_4_3 Target pratice for others....

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    I misunderstood the phrase "works... for..." then.

    I am not against branching out, again I didn't say no console games. But to me, branching out does not have to include leaving the first market behind, which is something that Epic is doing.
     
  20. ScHlAuChi

    ScHlAuChi New Member

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    From your viewpoint they might be broken, but if they sell millions they obviously cant be "broken", all you want is that they do the extra work to adhere to whatever you see as non-broken....

    Yes a few developers can make millions, EPIC doesnt seem to be one of them, but you still want their games, and im sure you can convince them to change their mind by telling them how broken their crap is ;)

    Why not just do that and just be happy with what you got instead of complaining? Subpar according to who? A minority of PC Gamers that doesnt bring EPIC any money?

    Gears of War was designed from the ground up with pad in mind!
    So how can it be bad if the developer intended it that way?

    I dont need counterpoints, if a game doesnt come out on PC i just play it on PS360 or vice versa - problem solved ;)

    Well it would be nice if it was that easy ;)

    No, but it pretty much proves my point that its not as easy as people claim it to be - just ask Hourences....

    It isnt, and the reason for that is the development cost!
    GTA4 did cost 100m, Bulletstorm maybe 20m - the risk is ALOT higher compared to browsergames or Facebook stuff, as their development cost might be only 100k or less. The higher the devcosts the higher the risks.

    Sure, but spending an additonal 500k doesnt guarantee that, it could as well turn out that you wasted 500k for nothing!

    Exactly, the amount of people wanting a PC version isnt high enough to warrant the effort. And those people who really care about the series bought it for 360 already anyway. Which is something you could do too!

    Whatever the outcome - PC gamers will be the losers and its their own damn fault!
    EPIC releases a game on PC -> everybody bitches....
    EPIC doesnt release a game on PC -> everybody bitches....
    And then people here are surprised about CliffyBs tweet....

    Ok if you think so ;)
    In that case theres no reason to worry, cause if the digital sales were so huge im sure EPIC will think again and release GoW2 and 3 soon ;)

    Reputation doesnt cover your costs :p
    And everyone seems to be buying those "broken" games just not PC Gamers ;)
    They rather act elitist and declare that all the games on the market are broken eventho they sell huge numbers elsewhere ;)

    We already covered that - you cant finance a game like Bulletstorm from 5$ sales :p
    And Game pubs/devs simply arent goint to invest huge sums of money when they don´t see the money spendt return to them. Instead they just do the same thing as EPIC - ignore the PC!
    If thats the goal then its all on track!

    In any case, im out of this - its pretty useless contining this disussion, but once our game is released we will see how many PC gamers are willing to put their money where their mouth is....
     

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