Blue Mars

[Keiichi]

I just watched a show about colonizing Mars, and I'd like to get everyone's opinion on it. How long do you think it'll be before we have a functioning colony (correction: habitat) on the Red Planet?

-Keiichi

[This message was edited by Keiichi on Jul 15, 2000 at 20:01.]

 

[Alpha_9]

1st to post on your poll too!

One good turn deserves another...

Anyway, regarding the question of Mars colonization, I voted w/in 50 years. Though I"m sure we'll have set foot there w/in 25 years, & set up some base camp, I think it'll take another generation beyond that to establish a self-sustaining full-scale colony.

Of course, if you asked most "experts" in 1950 when they believe a man would walk on the moon, they would have said maybe around the year 2000. So I could be wrong...
<h1><font face="symbol">
a 1001</font></h1>
"I love war and responsibility and excitement.
Peace is going to be hell on me."

Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.

 

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

Hmm, 1 for 25 and 2 for 50, and no choice for *over* 200 years... and then I rethank the question... do you mean breathing air outdoors? Or are you talking just like a grounded space station? I honestly don't know why we would want to build a large airtight space station on a planet- one earthquake or other seismic event, and you can kiss every person in that place goodbye. If you meant building up an atmoshpere good enough to breathe in, I think I heard a scientist guess that it could take several thousand years... you can still leave it open to possibilities because of incredible new advancements in technology those scientists never fathomed, but alot of times those advancements never come- c'mon, it's the year 2000! According to really really old movies, we're all supposed to be flying around cities with personal jetpacks by now!

So generally whenever I hear something about exploring or colonizing Mars, I just think "God dammit, where's my fucking jetpack?"

_______________________
Shot four puppet governors in a line,
Shook all tha world bankers, who think they can rhyme,
Shot the landlords, who knew it was mine,
Yes, its a war from the depth of time!

 

[Keiichi]

I absolutely love astronomy, and I tend to be a little optomistic about things like this. I voted within 25 years. The way I see it, being an astronaut is one of the coolest jobs in the world (followed closely by Army Ranger, and Breast Inspector). To anyone who doubts how trully beautiful the universe can be, take a gander at these (and Gryphon, if you're watching, these are some of the biggest pyrotechnic shows you'll ever see):

Reflection Nebula NGC 1999 surrounding the star V380 Orionis.

Keyhole Nebula within the Carina Nebula NGC 3372 near the star Eta Carina.

Stellar Nursery within the Trifid Nebula residing in the constellation Sagittarius.

Planetary Nebula NGC 3132 surrounding an unnamed dying star.

Lagoon Nebula Messier 8 near the constellation Sagittarius.

Helix Nebula NGC 7293.

Orion Nebula.

Eagle Nebula Messier 16.

Eskimo Nebula NGC 2392.

P.S. Regarding the poll, I was refering to a simple, self-sustaining habitat (nothing real fancy, just enough for a 4-man scientific team to survive for at least 6 months at a time).

DeadeyeDan, you're correct, if we actually DID try to completely terraform Mars, it would take several millenia (although we ARE capable of doing it). First, you'd introduce small oxogen-producing microbes (like algea), then move up to grasses. Once the soil was prepared, you'd introduce ferns and shrubs, and then, when the time is *just* right, you'd transplant the larger trees. Then you let nature work it's magic, and a couple thousand years later...voila. Breathable atmosphere.

-Keiichi

[This message was edited by Keiichi on Jul 15, 2000 at 20:26.]

 

[Bad.Mojo]

I would prefer a topic for people like me. "Who cares?"

Frankly, Venus is more like Earth than Mars is, so if we ever colonize a planet, it would probably be mercury. shorter trip and all.

And I'm sure some whiny little no-it-all geek is going to say "well mercury's to hot, mister" and to this I have to say mars gets pretty bloody hot and cold temperatures too, and yak yak yak this reason that reason all the reasons blah blah blah.

Venus, not Mars.

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Knew about five dimensional creatures that can't be killed? Nobody said a word to me.
---

 

[Keiichi]

Well, be that as it may, Mars seems to be what NASA (and the public) is focused on. And what NASA wants, NASA gets (whether it's cost-effective or not). Remember, with current technology it only takes roughly 6 months to get to Mars, and NASA already has numerous plans for setting up a temporary colony once we get there (simply a matter of dropping a few compartments from orbit, and then sending in the astronauts to put it all together), so 25 years really isn't all that unreasonable.

-Keiichi

[This message was edited by Keiichi on Jul 15, 2000 at 15:23.]

 

[Catalyst]

From what I remember, Venus suffers from tremendous greenhousing effects from a thick poisonous gas layer. Mars is the closest thing we got to Earth so far. Aside from the Moon of course, but we're probably already there /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<FONT SIZE=2 color="#A5AA56">Catalyst</FONT><FONT SIZE=1 color="#A5AA56">
Former Infiltration Programmer/Co-Founder</FONT>

 

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

Ok then, you should have said habitat, if it's that small I guess it's possible... but if they *colonized* Mars in some airtight city, there's a pretty good chance that one relatively mild disaster could just make one tiny crack in the place, and the air pressure in the station (and lack of air pressure on Mars) would rip the place in half and send everyone flying outside to some very, VERY grisly deaths.

A little 4-man habitat on the other hand, has a much smaller chance of being damaged by an earthquake or meteor shower or something... and they could evacuate it rather quickly if something happens. The only problem then would be gravity- we'd probably have to figure out a way to create artificial gravity if we wanted to stay there for 6 months (including the 12 months spent traveling there and back- I've heard 14-22 months, but that might have been an older source). Keep in mind the videos of astronaughts getting off their shuttle after an Apollo mission could barely stand up because their muscles had deteriorated, and it only took about 4 days to get to the moon.

_______________________
Shot four puppet governors in a line,
Shook all tha world bankers, who think they can rhyme,
Shot the landlords, who knew it was mine,
Yes, its a war from the depth of time!

 

[Keiichi]

Yeah, that's why NASA sends RVs instead of humans. We have the technology for extended space travel, we just don't have the physiology. Regardless, I should see men on Mars (and maybe even Europa) well within my lifetime. As it stands right now, Europa (a moon orbiting Jupiter, in case you don't know) is the most likely cantidate for extra-terrestrial life in our solar system (note: by "extra-terrestrial", I mean microbes or MAYBE something as complex as a small crustacean). Some very exciting times...

-Keiichi

[This message was edited by Keiichi on Jul 16, 2000 at 01:00.]

 

[Alpha_9]

Though not as strong as Earth gravity, I believe Mars gravity is strong enough to maintain adequate muscle tone (w/ exercise). And the trips to & from Mars can use vehicles that employ a spinning area to simulate gravity, where the astronauts can spend most of their time. It's something NASA is looking into. I doubt you'd see the same pictures you saw of the returning Apollo astronauts.

As for ultimate colonization (pre-terraform), you can build a large colony using an array of habitat modules. No need to make it all one big, vulnerable bubble. Smaller modules can be made to be Marsquake-resistant. Though I'm not sure quakes even happen on Mars. Keiichi? Do you know? As for meteors, Mars is in the same solar neighborhood as Earth, so the danger shouldn't be any worse than what we have here. The view from space doesn't show a Martian surface significantly more crater-ridden than Earth's.

Like Keiichi, I'm also an optimist on the future of space exploration/colonization. The human race is still in its evolutionary infancy. We've hardly even begun to climb out of our cradle. And what wonders we'll see once we do...
<h1><font face="symbol">
a 1001</font></h1>
"I love war and responsibility and excitement.
Peace is going to be hell on me."

Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.

 

[Gringle]

whoa

Those pictures are phat, man. As for the subject, I just hope we get there within my lifetime. I'm really fascinated by astronomy and I hope that we do get there. Oddly, Alpha, I just finished watching Patton for the 50000th time and I noticed your quote. I'll bet that quote is right /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

--Gringle, webmaster of The Redeemer
"Show me a hero, and I will write you a tragedy." -F. Scott Fitzgerald

 

[Keiichi]

As far as I know, Mars IS NOT seismicaly active.

-Keiichi

 

[MiscMan]

Has anyone seen "Mission to mars"? Not the best movie, but it did show what going to mars would most likely be like. The plan they used was called Mars Direct and i believe this is what NASA is looking into most enthusiastically. It employs the basic idea of what was used.

As for "blue mars" that would take quite some time. The idea would be to place some anhydrous plants(ie. plants that were on earth before air) on Mars. They can be found in deep oceans. And the plants will eventually fertilize the soil i think, or something like that. Naturally it would take thousands to millions of years, but with human acceleration maybe only around 100 years, possibly within ones lifetime. As for water, eh. There is water on mars, but i dont know that much about it.

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-MiscMan

You must believe in free will; there is no choice.

-Isaac Bashevis Singer (1904-1991)

 

[Keiichi]

The great thing about science is that it's always changing. What might seem like science-fiction today, may be science-fact tomorrow. The impossible becomes the common-place. If I were to go back 1,000 years and show the smartest person alive just a fraction of what we know today, he'd think we were Gods. 1,000 years. A mere blink in the great cosmic scheme.

"1,000 years ago, everyone KNEW that the world was flat. 500 years ago, everyone KNEW that the Earth was the center of the universe. Just think what you'll know tomorrow..." -Men in Black

Alpha_9: "And the trips to & from Mars can use vehicles that employ a spinning area to simulate gravity." I believe you're refering to centrifugal force? That would work, in theory. However, to my knowledge, the stresses resulting from rotating such a huge mass would tear the ship apart. But, then again, I'm no expert.

MiscMan: You're right. There IS water on Mars. Unfortunatley, most of it is locked in polar ice caps. And about "Mission to Mars". Yeah, it was real accurate, except for the "dust funnel", and the rescue mission, and the alien ship, and...well...pretty near the whole damn movie... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Keiichi

[This message was edited by Keiichi on Jul 16, 2000 at 00:53.]

 

[Christopher Webb]

As I recall, unlike as portrayed in Total Recall, Mars DOES actually have an atmosphere. Probably not an ideal one, but you're not exactly going to go pop either.

Suits woould probably be similar to dumbed-down versions of space-suits.

The reason I chose within 100 years is that although I'm optimistic about mankinds ability to do so, I severely doubt it looking at mankinds current record.

Current record?

As in our current "if there isn't a 99% chance that we'll earn squillions, forget it" mentality.

<insert cute/ interesting/ bizarre signature here>

 

[Bad.Mojo]

Oh wait, hahaha silly me, I forgot to include something... NEITHER MARS NO VENUS CONTAINS ANY BREATHABLE ATMOSPHERE WHATSOEVER, SO WHY NOT JUST BUILD THE GODDAM LIFE PODS OR WHATEVER ON A PLANET THAT'S MORE LIKE FUCKING EARTH THAN ONE THAT'S NOT, which was the entire point I was trying to make. Jesus fucking Christ...

---
Knew about five dimensional creatures that can't be killed? Nobody said a word to me.
---

 

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

Yes, it does have an atmosphere, but it's nothing like ours. Aside from being entirely different ratios of chemicals, there is much less air pressure. Air pressure at sea level on Earth is about 14.5 pounds per square inch, but Mars's air pressure averages about 1% of that.

As for Venus, it's FUBAR'ed. The air pressure is 90 times that of Earth's, the surface tempature is high enough to melt lead, and thick clouds of sulfuric acid completely cover the planet. I'm not sure, but I don't think we have any ideas on how to get rid of that atmoshpere, cool the planet down, or get rid of the sulfuric acid, and you'd need to do all of those to make the planet inhabitable. If your talking about living in airtight bubbles and such, your probably better off just making space stations in earth's orbit, that way you don't have to worry about the every-day natural disasters common to other planets, and you could probably have some emergency boosters to avoid collision with anything that heads your way. And that way it doesn't take 6 months to get there, and you could actually have telecommunications with people up there (a phone call to Mars would take 30 minutes to arrive there, and vice versa.

Mars on the other hand, has different problems we theoretically could fix, we could set up huge robot-operated air refineriess that would turn the carbon dioxide into oxygen, and give it a suitable atmoshpere, and create the greenhouse effect to heat up the planet to a livable temperature. The only problem with that is it could take thousands of years to create an entire atmoshpere. And then you'd still have to worry about gravity, unless we could create artificial gravity for an entire freaking planet, even with regular excercise, men's life expentancy would drop so much it wouldn't be worth it. For women, on the other hand, it wouldn't be that big of a deal... so please guys, stop f*cking up the Earth, because if we all have to move to mars, there's a good chance all the men will die out (the women multiplying by cloning sperm from other females' DNA- no, they don't even need us to make babies anymore)... could you imagine? An entire race without testosterone? Without big guns, fast cars, and violence? *shudder* It's just too horrible to think about. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
_______________________
Shot four puppet governors in a line,
Shook all tha world bankers, who think they can rhyme,
Shot the landlords, who knew it was mine,
Yes, its a war from the depth of time!

[This message was edited by DeadeyeDan[ToA] on Jul 16, 2000 at 16:45.]

 

[Keiichi]

Actually, Mars pulls roughly .5Gs (.4 technically, almost half what we have on Earth). Compare that to .16Gs on the Moon or a constant 0Gs in space, and you can see that Mars is looking pretty good. Bone/muscle loss could be kept to a minimum with moderate exercise, and remember, you only lose what you don't need (meaning that you would still be just as capable of performing you duties on Mars, as long as you stayed on Mars). We're just going to have to except the fact that people ARE going to change when we start colonizing other worlds.

-Keiichi

[This message was edited by Keiichi on Jul 16, 2000 at 22:36.]

 

[CBuzz]

read the novel Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson. This might have been mentioned somewhere in this thread, but i'm too lazy today to read the whole damn thing

 

[Keiichi]

I saw that at the book store today. Maybe I'll give it a shot.

-Keiichi