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A (long) question for everyone...

Discussion in 'General Infiltration Discussion' started by SexPistol, May 23, 2005.

  1. SexPistol

    SexPistol New Member

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    Hey guys... as you can tell from my post count, I don't participate here very often (although I do lurk quite frequently.) However, as most of you probably know, I'm a fairly active player within our small community, and for the past few weeks there has been a small itch that I need to scratch, and it's getting stronger the more I play.

    Please don't misconstrue the intentions of this post. I fully support SS, the dedicated Mod/mapper teams and individuals that still somehow find a way to blow my mind with what they can do with this archaic game engine, and especially all the wonderful people that make up this community and whom I've shared thousands of great games with.

    So -- to preface, I'm by no means a writer, so please bare with me as I struggle to get my point across.

    More and more there are talks, rumours, and allegations about people who cheat or hack; whether it be by way of radar, an aimbot, or any other method, and I've even made some harsh accusations myself. Unfortunately, I don't think there will ever be a way to prove (or, for that matter, disprove) any of these claims made against certain individuals. This really sucks, both for the people who aren't cheating and are being accused of it, and conversely for the people who are cheating and are getting away with it (if there truly are any.)

    Ultimately though, and regardless of whether a select few people do in fact cheat or not, I feel that INF has become far too easy; especially so for those of us who have been playing for a very long time.

    I've read here a wealthy amount of discussion on the subject of tactics VS reflexes. Despite the argument that can be made for 100% precision tactics, I'm sure there are a number of us here who can relate to an experience such as this:

    Player1 on Team A has a clear line of sight down a corridor he is covering, and is in an advantageous position behind some form of cover, leaving little to no bodily exposure. Player2 on Team A informs Player1 to be alert, there is reason to believe Team B may be advancing down said corridor. Team B in fact does appear down the corridor, and the minute Player1 from Team A opens fire, the player from Team B is able to instantaneously zero in on our Player1 (who was set up and waiting for the attack.)​
    Now, one would think a situation like this would be extremely rare, however I'm sure you could all agree that this in fact happens quite often. Sure, some of you will say "awgh, I'd like to see you try that if I were Player 1!", but the truth remains that this probably happens to you from time to time as well.

    There could be any number of factors that helped to shape this particular outcome, one of the most probable being: Team A's player was using an inferior weapon to Team B's Player (i.e. an MP5K-PDW vs. AKMSU, or an MK23 vs. MP5A2), and the first few bullets from Team A's Player's weapon weren't enough to kill Team B's Player, and Team B's Player had enough time to react (although he's been shot and is being shot at) and eliminate Team A's Player.

    Similarly, although I don't have any real-world military or combat experience, I'd expect that if I rung 3 shots off with any pistol, or caught a guy with 2-3 rounds from an AR, that if he weren't dead he would at least be stunned enough to not be able to counter my fire immediately, much less with any sort of precision.

    I realize that I'm leaving this particular point somewhat unresolved, but it is directly related to the overal point I'm trying to make, which is that scenarios like this should only occur 2% of the time rather than 40% of the time (you just can't make these kinds of figures up, you know -- these are hard stats! :lol: )

    I tried playing with the new RAv3 on one of the servers a few days ago, and I was a bit surprised (although pleasantly) by how difficult it was to accurately aim while standing, even at targets 30-40m away. Also when taking fire, if I were hit (even by a handgun), my view was thrown off substantially. Unfortunately I didn't have much time to play and the server emptied pretty quickly, but to me these were the two most noticeable changes... and I must say, they make complete sense to me!

    Anyway, to try and wrap this up, what I'm trying to ask is basically: is anyone else tired of the unrealistic outcomes of certain scenarios because of a lack of realism in a game wholly based on realism?

    I'm not trying to say that RAv3 is the answer to our (or maybe just my) prayers. In fact, I haven't played it enough to know if I love it or hate it. But, it seems to me that a change in current gameplay that would displace the advantage to the person who is truly in a better position, or that would cause a player to react more realistically to a wound or damage, would be a wise step in a game that strives to achieve an unparalleled level of realism.

    Am I alone here or what? Is this thing on... hello? :eek:

    Anyway, I'm done, and would love to hear your opinions. Sorry for the novel, and please don't flame me too hard :D
     
  2. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    Totally agree.

    That example you mentioned didn't happen to me exactly like that but I did get tired a while back by getting hipped from 50-100 meters away (within the first few shots, too). I'd like all damage to be doubled and body armor to be weakened (alot). Sometimes when shooting an m9 or something I feel like using a toy, since even hitting the head often doesn't kill so you actually have to aim for the legs.

    I also want more recoil, so much more recoil. And the effects of being under fire or even hit should be so much more dramatic. It might come across as whining but when you die easier and recoil is increased INF will be difficult again. Which is what I want, atleast. And no the world does not evolve around me but that doesn't stop me from having an opinion now does it.

    edit:
    I wonder what we could ever do to make cover fire - and more importantly - taking cover be more efficient than side strafing on roads.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2005
  3. ecale3

    ecale3 Sniper - May be harmful to your health.

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    Everytime i see someone strafe around a corner, shot someone dead on, and strafe back behind cover i contemplate never playing again, if just because this is not what i began playing this game for.
     
  4. cracwhore

    cracwhore I'm a video game review site...

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    No, you're completely right. That alone (well, combined with the 666 delicious 'bugs' (definition of 'bug' subject to change) I always run into) finally drove me to deleting the game.

    That exact 'Player A vs. Player B' thing happens to me every time I play. It's obnoxious. The strafing is at an all-time high, sadly - and it doesn't look as if it's going to stop any time soon.

    The problem with RAv3 is that it's partially bullshit. You can aim while standing up in real life. The problem isn't so much with the aiming, as much as it is with the movement. Most firearms in INF don't actually have a whole lotta 'kick' to them in the real world. I imagine a lot of the recoil was created for 'balance' (our collective enemy). However, since INF doesn't accurately portray movement / wounding / anything (on this engine at least), there's really nothing that can be done about this.

    I suppose another problem is that there is a huge split in the community. There is your average gamer - which wants 'fast, idiotic TDM'. They dislike the fact that 2.9 isn't 2.86 with more guns. And then, there's the guys that think it's still too fast, and need to be as realistic as possible - and approach the game as from a 'sim' perspective (although, it's far from it).

    RAv3 was a great start in the right direction - although, over-ambitious. It was too hard to fire the weapons accurately (judging from my limited experience with firearms), however, the movement was really going places (I felt). Another thing I really loved about it was the fact that there wasn't any conefire. It's sad that yurch moved on to better things (or perhaps, just moved on) - but I'm glad he's didn't kill himself working on it.

    The whole game needs a makeover - that's for sure. It was fun while it lasted - but after playing something like this for so long, you notice everything wrong with it...and it just eats at you...

    The fact that I can bunnyhop better in INF than I can in CS disturbs me.

    I really wish people would stop trying to model guns and start trying to make the core game worthwhile again. It needs EAS maps and a new hit detection / movement system. A lot of things really. I know geo is working on an update to 'RealTargets', but I still don't think that will solve the problems...

    Another (big) issue is the lack of ladder code. Apparently, there was ladder code, but it was removed (hell if I remember the details).

    Who knows if it's even possible to solve many of the current problems on this engine? I imagine it's not very fun to work with...

    The thing that depresses me the most is that we probably won't see another full release for four years (if not more - depending on what exactly is being done).

    So yeah, I hear you. Same boat.

    I love the concept of the game, and I appreciate the work that people still put into it. But, yeah...

    I'm taking a break from it for a while. Hopefully a few talented coders (in the meantime) will try and fix the movement issues and such while we wait for the next update.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2005
  5. Vega-don

    Vega-don arreté pour detention de tomate prohibée

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    to me some of those problems could be fixed by weapons damage modification alone.

    for exemple, to make someone hit unable to strafe anymore, increase damage.

    imagine a shotgun and a L3armor : now when you hit the guy he can run (even in the head with helmet wich is BS because some of the projectiles hit the face).
    if shotgun made 85 damage with L3armor at most ranges, it would not kill in one shot, but it would Wound you. when you have 15health you cant jump , strafe..

    the same thing could be done for the assault rifles.
    youd still need 2 shots to kill but the 1st shoot would incapacitate more.
    for the SMGs , i dont know how it can be done
    (Crowse, what you think of this)

    movement cant be tweaked i think. i would like to see some thing like auto go to hip when shot ..
     
  6. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    RAv3 is more than a little forced, and I certainly don't like how the use of periodic functions turned out (if I had the interest/time, I'd swap it out with an 'impulse' method that I've been far happier with). I probably overestimated the average player's ability to compensate for the difficulty as well. Didn't get to test that much, as getting players to play with the crashtastic mutator(s) that are designed to make you miss and doesn't feature all the 'new' weapons is a tad difficult. :p

    I do however, still maintain that anything increasing a hit aquisition time really is the only way to go.

    Weapon damage goes both ways, for instance, with a 'stun', team B guy could easily stun team A guy first.

    Recoil really only matters so much when we have multiple-hit kills, and/or we miss outright.

    Movement is pretty much negated when a player zeros his velocity. (Or just comes close enough)

    For most weapons, Infiltration's aiming is just a vector, a single, unchanging line that doesn't move unless your mouse or character does. All that a player needs to do is come to a full stop; then all that the iron sights, freeaim, and 'bob' do is obscure this aiming vector a little more. It's quite easy for experienced players to figure this out. Complex distration mechanisms are out, the only thing left to do is make the player work to keep that vector where he wants it.

    I can't think of many pleasant ways to do this. There's the "conefire countdown" (ala, CS, RavenShield, BF1942) where conefire widens when you move, shoot, turn extensively, and shrinks otherwise. You could tie lame constant figure 8 bobbing into the firing vector, and require players to hold breath for everything. Or, you can go with less patterned or, as I like to call them, 'living' vector movement methods like RAv3 overdid. I'm a bit biased, of course, but I don't know too many other options.

    More ranting later, I guess, I'm off for an exam.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2005
  7. UN17

    UN17 Taijutsu Specialist

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    To reply to the top post by Sexy, yes! That happens all the time which is why you don't want to go face to face with an assault rifle when you're holding a pistol! Are you daft man? :) Shoot them in the back! Regarding the "10 shots to head & chest causing 0 damage" thing, I've been doing some reading of blunt force trauma wounds caused by handguns to law enforcement personelle wearing armor. It seems that getting hit by a bullet hurts like hell and can break bones, even if it's a measly 120gr 9mm bullet. It depends on how lucky you are. I'm trying to build a little "un-aim" effect into the next version of RT. It will basically cause the person hit by the bullet to lose their sighting and suffer a shift in aim scaled to the damage they took.

    @Yurch: I agree that the main issue in INF is the sheer speed of putting an accurate shot against a target. It's amazing that some people can strafe around a corner and put a 3 round burst into you at 30m without skipping a beat. Granted, that's due in part to the horrible default Cylinder collision but also because there is no penalty for rapidly spinning your mouse around the screen in aim mode.

    That said, I think an accurate hit collision makes 80% of the difference first. Having a better aiming system completes the remaining 20%. If you've played on RT servers, the firefights last much longer with people using cover instead of running out in the open mowing down everything with their drum equipped assault rifle :)
     
  8. NTKB

    NTKB Banned

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    Just increase the weapon bob significantly so steadying your aim is more important on medium and longer ranges, and increase weapon sway dramatically for strafing or jogging, to truely simulate spray and pray, not the crap we have now. So rushing and strafing in CQB would work, as it should, but will NOT work past 5 meters.
     
  9. Crowze

    Crowze Bird Brain

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    Not a good idea IMO, firstly from a practical side (I'm assured it is possible to move fairly quickly while maintaining a decent aim on a target) and also from a medical... I certainly would feel sick if both my viewpoint and weapon were waving around crazily. Not to mention the hell it would produce on my 25ms-response-time TFT :(.

    I highly reccomend all server admins to put the latest version of RealTargets on the servers as soon as it is released. Geo and UN have been doing a brilliant job especially from such a bad starting point. Yes Nukeproof and myself are planning to do some work on RAv3 as well, but there's no telling when that will get going.
     
  10. NTKB

    NTKB Banned

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    RT will always favor ping. An increased difficulty to aim will impact all equally.
     
  11. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    Planning on keeping the periodical functions, or are you interested in something even 'wierder'?
     
  12. UN17

    UN17 Taijutsu Specialist

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    True :) But look at RAV3. When aiming takes 5+ seconds, it's easier to simply fire 30 bullets downrange instead of waiting for your aim to steady and firing 1 shot. When you punish aiming, spamming takes priority. The difficulty in hitting people in RT right now comes from the misalignment of the collision hulls. People aren't where you aim. When/if that is fixed, you should see a remarkable improvement in accuracy.

    Of course if you have 250 ping and 4% Packetloss... Having to actually aim instead of randomly spamming in the general direction is going to be a pain in the neck. But there will definately be regular Vanilla TDM servers to play on.
     
  13. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    When spamming takes priority then maybe people can finally take cover. In any case if turning around, going kneel and firing isn't something you can do instantly then maybe more people will DIE when they don't head for cover. Which is always a good thing.
     
  14. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    Using one of the filing cabinets in island as bullet cover while someone SAW's the hell out of the rest of the walls+windows is one of the finest game experiences I've had.

    'Spam' is reaction-fire, aimed shots are for those who have the drop on a target, either because the targets don't notice or are too busy taking cover from said spam of others. This is why snipers should be hiding, not simply outshooting thier opponents. This is also why the SAW should really be the king of our little battlefields.
     
  15. -Freshmeat

    -Freshmeat Eternally noob

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    Just out of curiosity, what is the ratio of rounds fired at a target contra rounds hit in battlefield conditions. I think I heard that it was millions of rounds in Vietnam. That number would then of course include a lot of covering fire, but the question is how many rounds were fired at a specific target vs how many hit?

    -Freshmeat (Who never hits anything due to lack of training)
     
  16. Nukeproof

    Nukeproof n1

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    Yes I have been trying get RAv3 to support BP and WP weapons (and renamed it to newaim which Yurch asked me to). So far I was successfull with 6 additional guns, before I ran out of freetime.

    I'll try to get back to it, but I forsee problems that I won't be able to overcome myself... (can't get WP attachments to work and can't get rid of bugs already in RAv3)
     
  17. UN17

    UN17 Taijutsu Specialist

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    Wow, bullet proof filing cabinets. I want one!
     
  18. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    Yes we greatly need a combination of RealTargets, Rav3, and z-axis speed control.

    Don't forget about z-axis speed control. Without it, there will still be a lot of "BS" happening on ladders, stairs, steep slopes, etc.
     
  19. SexPistol

    SexPistol New Member

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    Cool, I'm glad no one misinterpreted my post simply as a long-winded bitch session... and I'm glad to see many of you dedicated INF'ers agree :)
     
  20. Taque

    Taque Custom User Title

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    Of course most of us (here) agree, but keep in mind that these people who have already responded are the "hardcores." :p I think there's also the problem, as yurch briefly mentioned, of the "crashtasticness" of a mutator which would change anything to do with the playerclass, which while for us may be a little bother for a lot of good, is a big annoyance for others. This is especially true if other servers are running 'vanilla.' (oh god, here we go again :lol: )

    As for the ping/packet loss (of which I experience great amounts :D) and RT, aiming consists of choosing a bubble around the target and firing as many rounds as you can into it (or better yet, using grenades).
     

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