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A different aiming system

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by Psychomorph, Sep 14, 2004.

  1. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    Arghh, misunderstood, you speak about the MAG, is it still a MMG? Sure this MG can´t be used like a SAW, it is just carried or if possible shooted from hip (?).
    But the M60, especially the M60E should be possible to be shouldered I think, it is only not good to use it that way to long.

    So it is not possible to use NV and aim a sight (as I always thought to be hardly possible), so it is more for closer combat, where you fire without to aim (?), or use the laser.
    Would be good to have this in INF exactly like this. Cuz it never felt right in AA:O to have this one lens NV and be able to aim the small rearsight.

    P.S. if the Reflex is attached at the front of the M4 (like AA:O, or above the magazine) than it is logically the single chance to nearly aim this sight. Hmm, maybe you could be able to aim a reflexsight in INF using NV with bad effectivity? But not important though.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2004
  2. OICW

    OICW Reason & Logic > Religion

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    AFAIK most militaries which use the FN MAG teach (or used to teach) soldiers to use a "hip" position where the buttstock was held underneath the armpit for assaulting. Also, as gal-z pointed out, using a weapon's iron sights with NVGs on is virtually impossible. I cannot think of one game or mod with iron sights and NVGs that recognises this and has lasers for NVG aiming.
     
  3. Harrm

    Harrm I am watching porns.

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    After going back and rereading a bit of the older stuff, I think that it should be pointed out that a 3-dimension eye is going to determine the location of a 2-dimension, 3d-simulated object in relation to the screen "crunching" (how the screen renders what you see), as such, what you see with your real eye is not what you are going to see on-screen. this is sort of how you can see your gun hipped on the 2d screen, whereas a truely hipped gun would largely be out of sight.

    If anything, think of the physics of it. A 2d plane, representing a 3d plane, within a 3d plane projecting a 3d image on a 2d screen, all viewed through a curved lens.

    For bloods' sake people, just go with what feels right. It's important to note that it's a game, and whatever you display on the screen will look "right," as long as it looks semirealistic. The human eye is lazy, and takes a billion liberties when viewing objects to make it easier to concentrate. It's what artists (like me!) have been doing for centuries to simulate real objects.

    --Harrm
     
  4. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    @gal-z:
    LOL
    Hmm, the FM MAG is not that huge as I always thought. But this gun is cool, I would rather like to see the FN MAG as a MMG in the nxt INF, than the M60.

    Yes, this conclusion we got discussing it here.
    Only very long weapons could have just the visible tip of the barrel, otherwise you don´t see the weapon, but you would see the gunfire and much smoke. This is one of the points to better use rifles from a shouldered position. Only MG's are really good (or effective enough) to use from hip, since they have a large ammount of ammo and fullauto. Buttstockless rifles could be used from hip effective in very close and tight surroundings.

    Thats exactly my point, it should look/feel right to be realistic. INF is allready realistic enough and needs to be improoved a bit, BUT INF doesn´t look right and needs to be improoved very in this point. Indeed it feels good, but still it doesn´t really represents the use of a rifle as it is in RL.

    But my main point is to create a weapon handling which is as real as real :)D) and as comfortable as possible at the same time.

    @NV:
    I forgot, therefore the tracer ammo. Would be awesome in INF.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2005
  5. Nukeproof

    Nukeproof n1

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    Psychomorph, you should definitely aply to become the Sentry Manual Editor! Seriously, your Drawings are the most comprehensive ones ever to be posted in these forums ;)

    And I like your aiming idea ... hopefully SS is going to come back to it with 3.0... (so your persistence will pay out eventually :) )
     
  6. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    Thank you, but a bit to much of honour :D

    As we discuss the engine choice actually, it would be a pro for UT2004, so if INF3.0 will have another weapon handling, it could be possible to create this way of weapon handling via mutator (cuz it seems to be easier to implement lowready and animations with the UT2004 engine).
    I don´t think this idea will finds its way into INF that fast (not fully), but who knows :rolleyes: :D.
     
  7. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    Hehe I never thought of folding the bipod backwards. But this guy must be really really really strong if he actually fires a few aimed rounds this way. I doubt I can hold it like that for more than 30 secs and my muscles will probably hurt like hell if I do. When I held the Negev LMG like that for a bit less than a minute it was extremely difficult. Then again I'm no Rambo.
     
  8. Craetech

    Craetech New Member

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    Err.. while we're on the topic of "Aiming systems", can I bring up the issue of aligning of the front and rear ironsights?

    I personally think the current v2.9 weapon handling stances are perfect, so this would further improve on it. Everything is the same, except when shouldered there is a *slight* offset. Hitting targets accurately is still possible.. but only up to about 50m. Anymore and you'd have to "fine tune" the alignment manually to hit up to 100m+. The fine tuning remains as long as the weapon is still shouldered and you dont jog or sprint. Implementation either with a new key or something to do with the RMB (duh). Hold the key/button and you can move the mouse to align accordingly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2005
  9. Craetech

    Craetech New Member

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    Also for realism's sake, how about scopes that can be adjusted with the "fine tuning" idea?

    For this case, the rifle wouldnt have the offset initially. This is more for countering the ballistics of shooting over long distances, i.e. bullet arcs downwards and wind speed. Obviously there will never be "wind" in INF, so horizontal tuning is useless but should still be available regardless. But based on distance, the marksman can adjust the scope's vertical orientation. This whole idea is to simulate the vertical and horizontal adjustment knobs on scopes.

    Or are INF maps not large enough for such a system to be feasible?
     
  10. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    What about if the sniper, or even the normal rifle sight user can type in a special console, or the normal chat the range he want to adjust the sight on and the soldier automatically tunes the sight (1st person and 3rd person animations and sound). While range and wind will be adjusted automatical.
    If you type a neutralisation command, the sight will be taken to a standart neutral adjustion.

    If the chat is used, than they will be a code, so this command wont be posted. Like r120 will adjust the sight on meter 120 range + wind and so on.
    Neutralistation command could be r0

    Not sure if this should work the same for a scope maginfication tune.
    If yes, that the code could be m300, will adjust the scope on a confortable magnification to snipe on 300 meter. The command m0 would bring the scope to a comfortabe lowmagnification adjustion.


    Or maybe they could be up and down adjustion keys, where you tune the sight up, or down, while the range and adjustion number appear at the screen, so you can stop tuning, when your wish adjustion is reached.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2005
  11. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    Nah psy that wouldn't be realistic.
    Each wepaon should have a zero range where it hits where you aim, and the rest of the ranges will have an offest depending on the ballistic arcs. Sniper scopes can have a "clicks" system where u can raise or lower your point of aim, but it should be "5 clicks up" not "change to 130 meters". After all, the M24 with the ammo I use moves 50m further with the first 2 clicks u raise (zeroing range is 100m), then 33m for the next 6 clicks, then 20m for the next 10 clicks, then ~14m for next 7 clicks then 12.5m for the next 8 clicks (this would get you up to 800m if u add it all up). It's also part of being a sniper to know how many clicks u need to take to hit a target at a specific range.
    Anyway this requires the game to have way more realistic ballistics.

    On a side note, I'm still waiting to see someone code at least the basic parts of the new aiming system.
     
  12. Crowze

    Crowze Bird Brain

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    As far as I know, weapon adjustment is never done on the field. It would be interesting if you could set in the loadout what you want the weapon's zero to be though. The problem then is the actual value of the zero is different for every weapon, so each zero value would have to be calibrated by the coder manually.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2005
  13. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    @gal-z:
    I rather meant, that the sniper is guessing the range and the windage. The command would be the guess, but ok, not good idea anyway.
    I would prefer a manual adjustion everytime.

    The click thing you explained sounds very good to me. Thats also what I mean with the adjustion keys in the last sentense of my previous post, it's just how it works in real life.

    I think it would be cool, if you do this when the rifle is shouldered, the sniper take it a bit up to really see the control and the marks of the adjustion, so you can exactly see what you adjust.
    If you aim the scope, you just hear the clicks, but you stay scoped, that way you kinda adjust it by your feel (counting the clicks) and by what you see.
    Following a lowready suggestion, the sniper rifle would be taken up (barrel really pointed up), so you see the scope and the adjustion control.
    Hey I´ll include it to my suggestion :D, will post a pdf file anyway :D.

    @crowze:
    If INF3.0 (or what ever version), with a working sight adjustion thing, than of course you could do it in the menue.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2005
  14. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    You both got it right. ARs and lesser weapons are never (or almost never, since I know the new-style rear sights of M16A2 and newer CAN be adjusted for firing over 300m and for windage). Sniper rifles, though, are always adjusted to the pretty much exact range and windage. And yeah u do learn to "hear/feel" the clicks so u never have to look unless u forgot how many clicks u took or if u miscounted them, or if u want to set it back to 0 (100m, no wind).
    With Israeli ammo the amount of clicks u take per range is:
    200m 2
    300m 2+3
    400m 2+3+3
    500m 2+3+3+5
    600m 2+3+3+5+5
    700m 2+3+3+5+5+7
    800m 2+3+3+5+5+7+8
    Of course these values are average and may vary a little bit between different weapons (snipers who have the option to will spend a day in the range to find out how many clicks they need to take with their own weapon). Above 800m it varies even more between weapons - the averange for 900m is adding 8 or 9 clicks, which at such a range means a difference in 27cm because each click in 100m is approx 3cm (I think 2.89 which is damn close enough) so it's 3X9=27 for 900m.
    As for american ammo, I don't remember exactly, but IIRC it's 2+3+3+4+4+5+6 clicks for 800m. BTW it means that when flying 800m the bullet drops 27X3X8=648cm=6.48m (when set to zeroing range (100m)).

    As for zering ARs, I know standard zeroing range for m185 ammo (old 5.56 ammo which btw kills better but has only 300m effective range) is 250m, and the ss109 (new 5.56 ammo that requires 1:7" twist barrel with 600m range) is zeroed to 300m in the US and 250m in the IDF.
    As I understand pistols don't get zeroed at all because they're quite inaccurate anyway above 15m, and u don't have to do much zeroing if at all to hit a target at such ranges.
    As for SMGs, I have no idea what range they're zeroed for.
    Anyway, I think either each weapon should have its "zero" range (with new style M16 rear sights being adjustable for greater ranges), or if possible coding-wise make you able to choose each weapon's zeroing range in the loadout screen. Anyway sniper rifles should have it possible to change the zeroing range with the "clicks" system, beacuse that's how sniper scopes work IRL.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2005
  15. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    What about if the mission type decides whats the standart zeroing? If you have road to kandahar, the zeroing is on 300m. If you are in a swamp rat like map (awesome map) the zeroing is the lowest.

    The problem is, how it should be done? Guess by the server settings. Cuz custom map maker could not care about this, or have no knowledge.


    Clicks is something I always wished for Snipers in such games.
    I have to say, that HITMAN 2 has the most realistic sniper use. If you zoom in, you hear a click and have an effect of changing lenses (white blyrriness effect) and than the next maginficated view instantly apears.
    I´m not sure, but I think that how it looks in real life.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2005
  16. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    No. The clicks make the scope point lower so that you aim higher to compensate for bullet drop. It has nothing to do with varying zoom, which doesn't exist for some/many of the sniper scopes.
    As for zeroing range, there is no reason to really zero an M16 type weapon to something different than 250-300m because if you zero an m16 with m185 ammunition the highest point it will reach is 12cm above the point u aim to, which would be at a range of 170m. That's both insignificant when shooting at center mass and manageable when shooting a smaller target. If you zero for too short range you will have extreme difficulty to fire to larger ranges while not really gaining much of anything in the shorter ranges.
    Try playing around with "remington shoot!" to get an idea of how it works, although it doesn't have the weapons we want.
     
  17. hol@stickboy

    hol@stickboy New Member

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    I like the aiming system for the game, but I think something needs to be done with those machine guns in the level. Let's face it, if you were firing the gun, you would always be behind it to get a good shot at what you trying to kill. I hate how the machine gun moves, but you don't, and I think that you should be able to bring it close to your eye for aiming.
     
  18. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    You obviously didn't read the whole thread... Not that I'm flaming you for not reading it, I'm just recommending you to read at least the core (long) posts if not all of it to get an idea of what we have in mind.
     
  19. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    I will post a 1.2 MB PDF with a clean explanation of everything I didn't forgot (or know), plus some micellenious stuff (game type suggestions and so).
    Every expalanation has 3rd person pics and 1st person pics. Some things are changed slightly.
    I just have to read the whole to correct typo.

    @hol@stickboy:
    I mean the MG's are carried at the hip and you can shoot them, but can always bring them to the shoulder and use them pretty much as rifles, with the same freeaim zone and all. But your arms will get tired much much faster than with rifles.

    @gal-z:
    No I didn't meant an exact 300m adjust, but zeroing on the most likely range of this long ranged map. To have the sniper rifle allready zeroed and ready to shoot, than you can just correct the scope on you please.


    On other hand I don't know how the sniper rifle is zeroed before combat. If you spawn you are a soldier who wasn't in combat short befiore you play now (most likely) so the rifle is probably zeroed on in a neutral kind?

    Guess thats how it is. So if you are a sniper you have to check out the map by yourself and adjust the scope.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2005
  20. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    The zeroing range isn't really chosen according to the expected range of engagement... It's chosen as the range where the bullet will hit center mass if you aim at center mass even with the ballistic offsets you have at ranges different than the zeroing range.
    http://www.ammo-oracle.com/images/pathshort.jpg

    However, sniper rifles cannot be zeroed that way, because their ballistic offsets are much greater due to firing to much more variable ranges (even in same "map"). That's why u zero them to 100m then move "clicks" according to the target's range.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2005

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