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A different aiming system

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by Psychomorph, Sep 14, 2004.

  1. asmodeus

    asmodeus DB addict

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    well I don't know who's the other person you're thinking about, but I sure can use the rifle, I've used it all the time in 2.86 and 2.9 to good effect, even in CQB.
     
  2. Crowze

    Crowze Bird Brain

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    Me for one. It's simply because we've used it all the time in 2.86 and 2.9 that we've had lots of practice with it. However, at the moment it's impossible to track a moving target at medium range with it if the target switches direction, especially if the ping is 200+, so I'm tending to use the M16A4 or Sig551 instead now.
     
  3. Derelan

    Derelan Tracer Bullet

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    I use the FAMAS in some CQB maps such as Woodward or Archives, simply because of its high penetration and rate of fire. Its sights are simply horrible (not horribly designed, horrible to use), and don't really make it a worthy gun.
     
  4. Arethusa

    Arethusa We will not walk in fear.

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    Penetration and rate of fire on the FAMAS are the same as the SG551 and all other 5.56x45mm rifles, I believe.
     
  5. Lt.

    Lt. Elitist bastard

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    IIRC the range, weight, air resistance, and velocity are the same for all 3 rifles, the only difference is that the SG551 does slightly less damage then the other 5.56mm weapons. apparently IRL the shortness of the 551's barrel reduces the power to the round.


    ________________
    Edit: I too can use the FAMAS both with and without an ACOG in CQB. The trick for me is to start firing from the hip and then shoulder the rifle and bring it on target, raking the rounds across them.

    not that it's good for going *into* CQB...
    but its enough to fight your way *out* of it. ;)

    it also seems that the ACOG on the FAMAS allows a slightly larger field of vision, that combined with the low weight and suppressor make it a weapon I use a fair amount.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2004
  6. Crowze

    Crowze Bird Brain

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    The FAMAS has the fastest rate of fire of all inf's weapons (maybe apart from the Minimi on high, but don't get Tiffy started on that). Damage and penetration are te same as the M16A2, apart from suppressed.

    As for your edit... spray and pray... bah. The ACOG's FOV is exactly the same as the other ACOGs, and although I used to like using a suppressor for FAMAS sniping, many people know most of the good sniping spots so I'm finding that the 2 shots to kill is more useful than the flash suppression. Plus with RT it's so much harder to get headshots.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2004
  7. Rasalom

    Rasalom random

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    About Famas, this is what I always talk about...

    I really feel "blind" comprared how it used to be in 2.86.
    The 1,3,5,7 Images are from 2.86, the 2,4,6,8 are from 2.9.
     

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    Last edited: Nov 6, 2004
  8. Rasalom

    Rasalom random

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    the rest...

    [EDIT] just organized the images 4 and 4
     

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    Last edited: Nov 6, 2004
  9. Vega-don

    Vega-don arreté pour detention de tomate prohibée

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    the famas is easy to handle , but the g36 is a nono

    whatever my opinion doesnt mean **** anymore im not playing (time and gta)
     
  10. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    :( This is why people don't realize that suppressors are unrealistically good in INF. You guys are misinformed about the damage they do.

    A suppressed Famas will ALWAYS ALWAYS Always kill an enemy (with 100 health) in the same number of shots as an unsuppressed Famas. Armor, distance, location... none of that makes any difference. Although they have different damage values, they will always kill in the same number of shots.

    Yet, for some reason one is extremely hard to detect when shot, and the other is very easy to detect. That doesn't make any sense. Either the suppressed Famas should take more hits to kill, or it should be A LOT louder.
     
  11. Lt.

    Lt. Elitist bastard

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    crowze, AFAIK all three of the rifles should use the same AttachACOG_ScopeCircle and Reticle classes and should be the same, but on my machine they clearly are not.

    the ACOG for the FAMAS is marked '4x32' unlike the other ACOG attachments in 2.9 and when aiming your FOV is noticeably wider.
    screenshots attached.

    the implementation on the other 2 rifles is clone-like but the FAMAS is somehow different.
     

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  12. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    the 4x32 acog should have a FOV of 11 meters at a range of 100 meters.
     
  13. jayhova

    jayhova Don't hate me because I'm pretty

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    I missed this question a while ago and I'd like to answer it.

    Here is how I envision it working. When your weapon moves into the lollipop stick it's still treated as a normal part of the freeaim zone. When you reach the bottom of this zone the view will start moving with the weapon just the way it does when you are at the edge of the freeaim zone now. OK, Let's now say you are moving your M16 down to get a better view. When you move it down far enough so that world view starts moving too, you will know that you are at the bottom of the lollipop stick zone (LSZ). At this point all you have to do to keep from being brought into the lowread mode is keep moving or bring your weapon up just slightly. Now if for some reason you don't do this and your weapon does go into low ready mode the solution is to simply right click. As long as you haven't moved too much the weapon will come back to the bottom of the LSZ and lock out the trasition to lowready mode until you have reset it by exiting the LSZ. This will not of course disable the ablity to go into lowready via a keybind. I hope this answers the question.
     
  14. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    The problem with your lolypop idea is that it would be impossible to aim at a target below you when shouldered.
     
  15. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    I think I know how to solve the LMG (maybe MMG too) problem comfortably.

    When following my lowready and stuff suggestion, using rifles and similar, you have the lowready, the shouldered by clicking the aim key and the aimed by holding the aim key. Shooting while lowready will take the gun up and shoot (same as aim key clicking, but including the fire start, for fast combat).

    MG operating should be a bit different.
    Instead of the lowready, which keeps the buttstock at the shoulder, MG’s have the unshouldered sideways held position. So if you start to fire while having the MG unshouldered, the soldier is just lifting the weapon a bit until the barrel is pointed forward and start to shoot (See attached pic at Nr. 1).
    That way you wont shoot instantly, cuz the gun is beeing pointed forward first, but it wont be a noticeable problem. Only if you look up it takes even longer, but not that bad.

    I think that is a good and simple way to have the sideways held and hipped both included in one thing. That way you can move around with the MG down and shoot from hip fast as in real life.
    This wont work the same for rifles, cuz the rifle has the buttstock allready at the shoulder, so you lift the gun the fastest to the shouldered position. And lifting the gun up from lowready is a bit faster than shouldering it from the sideways held position, but just a bit faster.

    The above explained hip shooting with MG’s works if you fire while not shouldering the weapon. But you can also operate the MG as a rifle if you tap the aim key (see attached pic at Nr. 2), that way you shoulder the MG like a rifle and aim fast. As with all other weapons, you have the gun automatical shouldered after you have aimed.

    Of course it is harder to have the MG shouldered for to long, but this shouldering mode with the MG is your choice and depends on the situation. If you move close to a building and feel saver having the M249SAW ready to aim, or to have it more stable you can easily shoulder it, if you feel saver unshoulder it again, if you are beeing surprised, no prob, just shoot from hip. You will have the control.

    Also it is possible, when you are behind cover which doesnt allow you to shoot from hip, than you need to shoulder, I think that system will act as in real life (or very close), the only things need to be done are the correct animations of pointing the lowered barrel forward (with a 1st person animation, where you see the barrel appearing at the bottom) and the correct delay times what depend on the direction you look at (forward, down will be very fast, looking up will take more time to lift the barrel up).



    Movement
    Also I have something to note.
    As known they are the 3 moving modes, walking, running, sprinting. As usual in some games you hold the rifle sideways if sprinting, but in real life you can still have the gun shouldered and sprint as hell. So I would like to have it that way:

    Walking
    You can shoulder and aim a weapon, same moving speed.
    You do not loose stamina if the weapon is up, just your accuraccy drops a bit at the time.

    Running
    You can shoulder the weapon and keep your speed. If you aim your speed drops.
    You loose a bit of stamina if running the whole time with the gun up. Running slower while aiming will also drop stamina a bit.

    Sprinting
    You can sprint and still have the weapon shouldered, but sprinting that way costs a lot of stamina, so you better take the gun down.
    This would be useful in some situations, if you need just to sprint some meters, without to loose your weapon position, kinda a tactical sprint. While running is a more of a slow and controlled run/jog.
    Maybe you have a short shooting delay if sprinting, for balance sake, or completely have no ability to fire, for savety reasons.
    Inertia is a must.
     

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    Last edited: Dec 8, 2004
  16. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    No, I´m not finished :D

    If they is a situation of a nightbattle with thise laseraiming module, that you can see only with some special googles (don´t know how it is called), than I would suggest it is working that way:
    See attached pic 1, the unshouldered sideways held position is seperated from the hipped (forward pointed) position (which is not the case in my previous MG suggestion post). This have to be that way, cuz you need to aim with the laser, thus you need to hold the MG hipped steady. Since you do not really need to shoulder the MG, unless you need to aim the sight, the shouldered position is just replaced by the hipped position.

    It works the same as the normal MG use, only that you have it hipped, not shouldered. That means you toggle between the sideways held and hipped mode with the aim key. Holding the aim key will shoulder and aim the MG.
    Same here, if you have the MG sideways and fire, the MG will be automatical hipped and fired (same as a lowready rifle would be highready and fired).

    If you disable this laser aiming system, than the MG is used as described in my previous post (sideways held/hipped if fireing, shouldered if tap right mouse key, aimed if hold right mouse key).

    -----------------------

    Now the sniper. Since the unshouldered sniperrifl is held sideways as the MG you should be able to shoot from hip if fireing while holding the rifle sideways (See attached pic 2).

    The idea is simple. What would be the fastest way to point a weapon forward and shoot if having the rifle in lowready (where the butstock is still at the shoulder)? I think taking the rifle up to the shouldered position would be the fastest, faster than taking the rifle to the hipped position.

    And if you hold the gun sideways, what is the fastest way to point the gun forward to shoot? I think hipping the gun is faster. Thats why I suggest it that way.

    -----------------------

    Weapons like SMG's, Shotguns, Carabine Rifles, Battlerifles and Assaultrifles (included acog scopes) are part of the 'lowready/highready' family and if pushing fire while in lowready those weapons would be taken to highready and fired.

    Weapons like Sniperrifles, normal Rifles transformed to sniperrifles (not acog, but a real sniperscope), LMG' and MMG's are part of the 'sideways held/highready' family and would be fired from hip if pushing the fire key if the gun is not shouldered.

    Pistols and all pistol held weapons are part of the pistol family ('lowready/aimed').

    Buttstockless Rifles are part of the 'sideways held/gun up held' family.
    So if holding it sideways and firing you would just point it forward keeping it hipped and fire (kinda high hipped, since the gun is light). To hold it at the shouldered height (for more steadyness) you push the right mouse key (aim key). To aim the sight hold the aim key. (See attached pic 3)


    I suggest this structure of weapon handling. I think it is easy and comfortable to use.
     

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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2004
  17. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    Nice, I like, just 2 cents:
    -With the FN MAG (MMG) it is impossible to fire from shouldered unless you lay the bipod on (usually prone) something or put it on a tripod. Also note that it has been quite worldwide decided that for infantry 5.56 MGs are simply better by almost all means.
    -When sprinting there is no reason to not be able to fire, but you would naturally run a tad slower if you try to shoot while running. It should be possible to shoot but make it slow u a little bit and make pretty damn big sway so you are in no way accurate, although when firing many rounds it should be possible to have 1+ of them hit a target at 20-30m.
     
  18. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    1 more thing... With most NVGs you are unable to fire most sights, so your "aimed with NVGs" mode is quite unrealistic.
    The only time I was able to aim a weapon with NVGs on was with very high quality, small NVGs that have a seperate goggle(?) for each eye (like the 1 u have in the picture) with a reflex sight, and I could barely recognize the sight's dot.
     
  19. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    The ability to shoulder an MMG is possible I think, but the question is how effective it is, and the effectivity is low, makes your arms tired after a very short time and so on, but I think the ability should stay (just the ability).
    For example if in the next INF you can kinda lay down the MG on objects of your 'shoulder size' just by having the MG shouldered and standing in front of this 'object', than the shouldered could be useful. If they is not such possibility the devs can leave the shouldered and aimed while standing out and include something useful to the aiming key.


    Yes, if you sprint (not run) and fire, the speed should be reduced (no aiming possible at all), but only if you fire, if you sprint without to fire you weapon, than I think you should sprint same fast as like having the gun in lowready/sideways, just to support the 'tactical sprint' (but as said the stamina should drop much faster if having the gun up and sprinting). You should definitely not be able to sprint full speed and spray bullets.


    Ok, I´m not an expert with those googles (you are :D), but maybe it depends on what NVG's is used in INF?
    What about NV googles at all? In AA:O you can use the M16 sights (which are pretty close to the eye) like normal if using the NV, but I find it a bit strange.
    How it is in RL, can you use sight then? I have my doubts.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2004
  20. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    There is no possible way to shoulder the FN MAG. It's just too long - the only way to hold it is 1 hand on pistol grip and other hand on the bipod, which is too far away to allow shouldering the weapon (your hand isn't long enough and it has no handguards of any sort).
    Also there is no possible way to use iron sights with NVGs. Either you attach a NV sight to your weapon such as the 1.5x litton or aquila 4x or you use an IR lazer designator with NVGs.
    What I said about NVG+reflex isn't really used, it's just something I noticed was possible. Though it might have been used if we could actually afford more than like 1 per company (3 platoons...) :p not that we don't have NVGs, it's just that the ones we have aren't good enough to use with reflex sights. Actually another platoon-level NVG (which you actually might have a couple per platoon rather than 1) can be used with reflex sights, but it's harder since it has only 1 goggle (2 screens for both eyes but only one lense), as well as lower image quality. Still isn't used by anybody, just something I noticed was sort of possible.
     

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