3Dbuzz top 10 finalist so far

[Trynant]

Come back soon NC!

Plus, if you can import custom stuff... thumbs up.

No custom content allowed in the contest


As far as how to review maps, I'd like a review schematic that grades in three categories: the look/impression of the map, the quality of the construction of the map (if it's optimized and all), and the flow/design of the map.

Now a good way to to set this up would be that for each category you could grade from 1 to 3, 1 being bad, 2 being okay, 3 being great. Then sum up the score from each category and then add 1 point if the map is "fun." Maybe this "fun" could be determined by a poll of some sort.

If only there was some place that did reviews like that.

 

[Sjosz]

And you are right, the Level Designers are using the tools they have to create maps following the rules of UT3.

Where Level Design is crossing the line through Game Design is when you have also the tools to create new elements that aren't in the Game Design Documents wrote for the project. These new and original elements will improve the immersion, gameplay and originality.

Changing the weather of a map is part of that, is it breaking any UT3 rules? Hell no, it's about originality and immersion.

You shot down a publicity sign and it fall on the head of your worst enemy and kill him!!? OMG 10 pts lolll

A rotating object is in the map. You can bash it with your Hammer... and damn yeah! you can kill people with that trick.

There is a water zone somewhere and you could use your "E" action key to take a radio on the table near you and press "E" back to drop it in the water to electrify the water. Have you ever seen that in UT3? Would it break anything? No

You can make destructible environments, are you against that?
Is it in UT3??

You could also use an object, etc to make covers... I don'T think it breaks UT3 in anyways.

You break a radio station and the music that was coming from the speakers in the map goes down. - immersion...

All that is your role as a Level Designer, because any 5 years old kid can learn the Editor and make a layout with meshes all around. - no offence, but it actually is user-friendly enough for that

Conclusion...
There could be a lot more than just weapon placement, basic 3D layout with BSP, place some meshes and lights... wow I got a map.
You can aslo take full advantge of triggers, Kismet, matinee and cascade. Plus, if you can import custom stuff... thumbs up.

First and foremost, I don't think that having tools like Kismet or Matinee or Cascade to create mini-sequences like Calibrah's additional particle effects and edited post processing make level design cross over into game design. These elements are still only integral to the level and therefor just a creative use of the toolset in level design.

You seem to refer to gameplay elements which are fine by themselves but will have a negative influence of the level's overall gameplay when UT3 is concerned.
I understand your points fine, but these are gameplay elements suited for types of games that fall outside pretty defined competitive online multiplayer first person shooter game genre that UT3 fits in.
Being able to trigger time slowing down for everyone in the level but for the person who triggers it is a fine gameplay element which we see back in games like Enter the Matrix, FEAR, Devil May Cry. Just because it works well and in a cool way in those games it doesn't mean it would work well for UT3. At the end of the day UT3 is an online multiplayer shooter that focuses on a specific type of gameplay. Competitive design requires even more attention and elements like destructibility and electrifyable water would be shot down in flames by the playing crowd.
Your suggestions would be considered gimmicks, which is good for casual play and for singleplayer type affairs, but not UT3.

And saying any random 5-year-old can use the toolset because of it's ease of use is fine, but you can't be serious to say any 5-year-old can make layouts for play. You'd be surprised how much thought goes into a well playing layout.

 

[JohnDoe641]

Competitive design requires even more attention and elements like destructibility and electrifyable water would be shot down in flames by the playing crowd.
Your suggestions would be considered gimmicks, which is good for casual play and for singleplayer type affairs, but not UT3.

I haven't really read the thread, but I did read your post and if any point were to be made, it's this.

I know that you're part of the HOLP crew so you've got this fundamental down.

 

[Hyrage]

And saying any random 5-year-old can use the toolset because of it's ease of use is fine, but you can't be serious to say any 5-year-old can make layouts for play. You'd be surprised how much thought goes into a well playing layout.

.... no comments
I do not think that it is that much complicated, for sure it's a lot of thoughts, but it's longer than harder.

Whatever you add as feature in a map, there is always a way to balance it with the gameplay of the game, no matter what.

 

[Sjosz]

So basically you're saying that 5-year-olds can be doing my job?

Also, there is no way that you can always balance a map with gameplay regardless of the 'feature' (or gimmick). Adding 5 invulnerability pickups as a feature, rotating on a giant clock floating above a pit of lava can seriously not be counter-balanced unless you remove it.

 

[Hyrage]

So basically you're saying that 5-year-olds can be doing my job?

Also, there is no way that you can always balance a map with gameplay regardless of the 'feature' (or gimmick). Adding 5 invulnerability pickups as a feature, rotating on a giant clock floating above a pit of lava can seriously not be counter-balanced unless you remove it.

resize your map...- kidding
but yeah, I'm sure a 5 years old kid can do better than many Level Designers on many actual games...
Just thinking back to Halo 3 and omg... it's sad.

 

[BIOS]

If kids could do true level design I'd be indicted on child labor charges. While I agree that the editor is extremely user friendly, there are many advanced theories and techniques about gameplay that sail right over the heads of many younger children. (hell, i'm a lead level designer and a lot of topics are over the heads of my junior LDs...) Ease of use doesn't mean anyone can create. Drums are a SIMPLE SIMPLE instrument, yet most people find them incredibly difficult to play.

 

[Sjosz]

Hyrage, I honestly believe you are sadly, sadly mistaken. As BIOS mentioned in his post, theory and concepts behind design are things that are not child-friendly material in the sense of it being understandable.
I'm very sorry, but if you truly believe that designing levels for games is child's play, you have seriously lost the plot.

 

[Hyrage]

If kids could do true level design I'd be indicted on child labor charges. While I agree that the editor is extremely user friendly, there are many advanced theories and techniques about gameplay that sail right over the heads of many younger children. (hell, i'm a lead level designer and a lot of topics are over the heads of my junior LDs...) Ease of use doesn't mean anyone can create. Drums are a SIMPLE SIMPLE instrument, yet most people find them incredibly difficult to play.

I totally agree, but once you understand the principles or the natural logic of level design, I think it can come very naturally...

I mean, it always been something natural for me, and the word harder doesn't really exist and I do not believe that I kid is less intelligent, just less experienced so I'm sure my sisters would be able to figure it out. Same for the kid who can flawlessly play Guitar Hero III at the hardest setting like a pro.

 

[Sjosz]

You try and get a kid of 5 years old to explain to me what words like 'principles' and 'natural logic' mean, much less let him understand what he's saying while he's saying it. It's not harder, just longer... about 5 to 10 years longer.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

Let's see Hyrage put a map where his mouth is, tbfh.

 

[Hyrage]

Let's see Hyrage put a map where his mouth is, tbfh.

Actually, I feel it's more like my hands... but it's oky

 

[Ignotium]

Drums are a SIMPLE SIMPLE instrument, yet most people find them incredibly difficult to play.

you are so so so so so wrong! drums are a simple simple instrument to beat and to smash with drumsticks, yeah.. but to play them? not so easy

 

[Hyrage]

Hyrage, I honestly believe you are sadly, sadly mistaken. As BIOS mentioned in his post, theory and concepts behind design are things that are not child-friendly material in the sense of it being understandable.
I'm very sorry, but if you truly believe that designing levels for games is child's play, you have seriously lost the plot.

So I guess you agree that this map from Halo 2 (made by a pro) is way too complex for a 5 years old kid?

I'm sorry, but it is first a remake... and second of all it's a poor map, plus it's using a hyper symetrical technique and basically it's 1/4 of a map multiplied to make a square. The point is... it is a pro map.

Sorry, but everytime I play Halo 2 and see that map at MLG I just can'T believe that people are spending money for that when we just can get 100 times better map by example with the UT3 community for free.

 

[G.Lecter]

You'd be surprised how much thought goes into a well playing layout.

.... no comments

For some reason many people does follow a random clueless process to make their map layouts, which is leading you to think it's a child job...
1. Spread some rooms randomly.
2. Join those rooms with a few hallways.
3. Spread a few pickups all around.
4. Done! Let's start with the StaticMeshes!

Now let's compare it with the way (I think) DM-Rankin's layout was made:
1. Three main rooms have the most popular weapons (Shock, Rocket, Flak) at the lowest floor.
2. A few secondary spaces (LightingGun, Minigun) are added as a means to join the main rooms with each other, and add some z-axis by the way. Someone in those spaces has height advantage over the main rooms, so the main rooms have become riskier places.
3. Some hallways are placed to add more ways to go from one room to the other. There's an intention to make the hallways actually interesting, rather than a simple way to 'go to the other room': One of the hallways has an Amp placed in it (providing z-axis cover), and the Bio hallway has plenty of ways to get into and out of it (doorways, dodgeramp, dropdown).
4. The Shield is placed in a well-thought deadend, which also adds interest (the dropdown) to the Bio hallway.
5. ...and so on (dodgeramps, vials...).
Notice that there's very little randomness in the way it was made: it all starts with a simple organising principle (three rooms) and the whole map grows up around that in a very logical way. Every thing it was added is based on what there was in the map already, also, the item placement was thought at the same time as the layout (every room/hallway was designed to hold a specific weapon/pickup)... It all was done in such a logical way that the map was understood and accepted by most people from the very beginning, in spite of its complexity... :tup:
Is a 5-year-old guy able to make this? I don't think so! In fact you've just proven that some pros aren't!

 

[Hyrage]

Exactly, but if we take Warlock as a pro example, maybe there are just some work to do with the recruiting LOLLL.
Or, a 5 years old child could just be good enough to make a good map lol.
But I do not think, that Rankin has been made so randomly, Hourences isn't making random stuff:

Because he wrote:
I don't create things by intuition like many, I know exactly why I need to include certain elements, and can communicate that reasoning.

Strong view on colors, consistency, and composition. Have directed the art of dozens of levels in the past.

 

[BIOS]

you are so so so so so wrong! drums are a simple simple instrument to beat and to smash with drumsticks, yeah.. but to play them? not so easy

that was my point.

And Hyrage, Warlock is really no different than DM-Morbius. It's an arena, and it's fun to play. Every DM game EVER has had one of these, and to call out Bungie on this is to call out Epic and Id on it too. There are plenty of Halo maps that are really well balanced and flow well (for the Halo gameplay mechanic), and plenty of ****ty ones too. That fact that a pro designed Warlock doesn't support your argument that anyone can make a level.

Why does a design have to be complex in order to be legit? Warlock (like all of those maps) was playtested a LOT (you should see Microsoft's playtesting -- I have...it's amazing), and the reason it was included was that it was FUN.

 

[Hyrage]

First, Warlock is way to confusing and looking the same - really bad point for a Multiplayer map

Respawn points are way too bad, the opened map gives the opportunity to easily respawn kill. You would also get backstab or surprised by behind due to the respawn points on the maps.

Way too easy to be killed by grenades in the corridors down the bases, there is no correct covers.

If that is what you call a great map, well I agree it's pretty cool.
Anyway, I'm sure you are right.

Note:
Ubisoft made playtests for Rainbow Six Vegas with 8 persons. After the playtest they got their feedbacks:
- Dude I love the 3rd person
- Dude I freaking love the 3rd person
- Man the 3rd person was crazy
- Hmm the 3rd person was great, but wouldn't fit well with the multiplayer. It just break down what R6 is all about in DM.
- Nahh the 3rd person was great
-The 3rd person was outstanding
- The 3rd person is good for singleplayer because you play some Elite characters that can guess where their enemies are, but in DM it wouldn't fit... as the player you should be the one the should risk to turn your head around the corner to spot your enemy. It's part of the game... risk your life to spot an enemy or get killed. If you can already see everyone... where is the point? People would just stay hidden until some one goes out.
- Nahh 3rd person is cool

Final Result.. oh oh 3rd person is cool!
We keep it.
Awesome deduction...

 

[BIOS]

Warlock has flaws, but I don't play it competitively. It's fun over system link with my buddies, and that's about all I care about. And believe it or not, playtesting can yield good results, whether you think it can or not, or whether or not you agree with the results. I don't want to argue semantics though and I certainly don't fault you for disliking Warlock...in fact, I agree with its tactical flaws. But don't flame me for stating that Warlock is why it is for a reason, not some random LD design...which is what you inferred initially.

 

[Mclogenog]

Time for me to enter the argument:

1. From what I have seen in my little experience I can say that 5 year olds cannot (as a general rule) create playable maps. If you have ever used a simple simple editor such as the one that comes with Far Cry for the xbox consoles you will soon find out (after downloading a few user maps) that even people that are 10 and 15, even 20, create some generally crappy maps. I don't want to remember how many times I donwloaded a map with a generally nice name to find out it was a D-Day assault map (intended for DM, wtf?) that was essentially a giant square of terrain with invisible walls blocking off the edges of the maps. Being an even younger level designer at the time, I myself attempted a D-Day map but soon discarded it after I learned some major balance issues from it. With the tools as user friendly as they were, I found very few good maps, probably becuase the game was mainly played by people around the age of 13. If you want me to give you proof of my statement here, I'm afraid I cannot unless you actually play the game (and even now it is probably to seldom played to find an online game).

2. Game design and Level design are different, but can be inclusive. The way I see it is as a Square being a rectangle, but a rectangle not being a square situation. Game design creates the core gameplay, Level design implements core gameplay to the best possibility. For example, if a level designer used a GoW kind of floorplan (which is generally fairly flat and open, though that form plays well in Gears) and they tried to use it for UT3 (Generally requiring a more extreme use of z-axis) they would find that it doesn't play so well. This is due to the level design not incorporating the core design. This is also the reason why Gears of War levels made for UT3 make me laugh.

3. Organized level design (like how G.Lecter assumed the design of Rankin) is difficult to a certain point without experience and therefore takes practice and in no way is it intuitive or random.

Pardon my Wall-o'-text and my inexperience shining through my words.

EDIT:

4. Level design does not technically require an element to make it unique, however (especially more and more recently with games like GoW2) dynamic elements are implemented to make the game more interesting by incorporating elements that are generally conscidered to only be useable in single player environments. Yes it is difficult, yes they can be cool, no they are not necessary.