3Dbuzz top 10 finalist so far

[Sir_Brizz]

I just can't agree with the judging on this contest at all, I'm sorry.

I grabbed the top 5 finalists, here are my thoughts (from the order listed on their page):

Shiota (called Shanghai in-game):
This map is visually appealing. And that is where the buck stops, unfortunately. There is NO FLOW, NO GAMEPLAY and the map is absolutely humongous. Replayability is extremely low, I couldn't even finish one match before I got bored of running for ages before finding any enemies. It has far too many open areas where sniping is just too easy and I got caught on all kinds of geometry just running around on paths that the map guides you through. Weapons are in inconvenient places, and spawns are not close to even mildly desirable map locations. Basically, the theme is nice and the map looks good but that is all.

Fun: 1/5
Gameplay: 1/5
Visuals: 4.5/5 (dropped half a point for some goofiness on corners and broken/missing blocking volumes)
Replayability: 1/5

Total: 1.8/5

Xenon (DM-Xenon in-game):
This map is alright, but it's lighting scheme is way too dark. About half the time I could not see opponents because they looked exactly the same as the architecture. The map is also extremely cramped. It's hard to use any tactics because most of the time you are stuffed into tiny little hallways. The overall look of the level is pretty bland for the most part with architecture that all looks the same and not really placed creatively at all. The flow is decent, though, and it's probably fairly replayable. However, due to mistakes like lifts looking exactly like the architecture, it was hard for me to care about the level at all.

Fun: 1/5
Gameplay: 4/5
Visuals: 1/5
Replayability: 3/5

Total: 2.25/5

WhiteRealm (WhiteRealm in-game):
Probably the best thing about this map is clever use of lighting when going into and out of the main building and to different parts of the building. If I were giving points for style, this map would certainly get them. Even still, though, the lighting effects really add to the atmosphere here and make the level really fun. It has nice flow, as well, which is surprising to me considering the theme of the level, but the author actually made it work very nicely. I also thought it was quite replayable since I played more than one match on it.

Fun: 4.5/5
Gameplay: 5/5
Visuals: 5/5
Replayability: 4/5

Total: 4.6/5

Nimius (Nimius in-game):
I found this map to be the worst of them all. The layout was.... nonexistant. The low gravity made it even worse. The bots did nothing but get confused. Often bouncing off the same lift dozens of times, walking way out to the edge of the map and squatting, trying to jump on a tiny ledge and missing, etc. Part of the problem with this map is that there was not a consistent design. You could walk on certain parts of the ship, and you could not walk on other parts that looked more obviously designed to do so. There were only a few flat places that didn't require jumping so sniping is quite prevalent and works far too well. The weapon placement does not feel intelligent and I just couldn't stand to play this one for more than a few minutes. Really, really poor choice. Visually, it was okayish. I liked the idea of the map, but the execution just was not good.

Fun: 0/5
Gameplay: 1/5
Visuals: 2/5
Replayability: 0/5

Total: 0.75/5

Calibrah (Calibrah in-game):
This map also really cleverly uses lighting, but in a much different way than WhiteRealm. There is an invulnerability pickup, and whenever someone has it, the lighting scheme of the map completely changes. Typically, I would say having invulnerability in a map is a big no-no, however it is used so cleverly in Calibrah that I have a hard time faulting it for that. Visually, the map is awesome, the theme is done superbly and the design is great. Blocking volumes are placed well and weapons and spawns are as well. I find this to be the most fun of the maps in the top 5. I have it on my regular instant action rotation. The bots play it well and you could take the invulnerability out and still have an awesome and playable map.

Fun: 5/5
Gameplay: 5/5
Visuals: 5/5
Replayability: 5/5

Total: 5/5

I played through Marauder and I simply cannot believe it wasn't even in the top ten. It could have been a stock map and been as good or better than any of them.

 

[hal]

Good point G.Lector, I agree. One thing that dissapointed me was the lesser attention to "thread upkeep and updating" which was initially refered to as an important factor. Because of this I spent a lot of my time providing quality updates. Really I don't think that the threads should have played a roll whatsoever, because thread quality doesn't mean map quality. In an ironic way though, it didn't play a roll in the judging (or seems not to have). All the same, my previously stated opinions still stand as is.

I understand why this may have been important to them, given that 3DBuzz is centered around the sharing of knowledge. Have dozens of threads of "start to finish" tutorials for UE3 levels is really great for inspiring beginners.

 

[pinnacle]

Well I just played through most of them including the finalists and I was trying to be nice before, but I'm sorry... this judging is nothing short of a joke.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

If this was some amateur site, this would not be as big of a deal, but with it being 3D Buzz, the quality and value of the prizes, and involvement from Epic, you would think the judging would have made more sense.

Is this a taste of things to come from the MSUC? Let's hope not :tdown:

 

[hal]

Where is Axeman's level? I can't find a download link anywhere.

 

[Ignotium]

Total: 0.75/5

ouch .. lol

 

[Kev_Boy]

As said before, 3DBuzz is hosting the competition and they're the ones giving out the prizes, so they can judge anyway they fancy.
It's their ride. It's their money. It's their taste.

Judging maps is a very personal thing, judging anything is a very personal thing.

 

[Sjosz]

IMO they should have simply had a rule "no professionals". If you are going to try and attract beginners, you want to give them a chance.

Also the rule that any map made could be entered just sucks. It must really suck to have started on a level for this contest, have only a month the time, and then the last day some dude enters his level that he made some time ago and spend 4 months working on...

A major part of level design is about fun though, so is it really that weird that they value that so much? I also believe that you can set a fun standard, and that is the way the game is meant to be played. For what kind of gameplay is the game designed? Sure you can go play and hide and seek, or some carnage fest in a cube, but that is not what the core gameplay of UT tries to offer. So imo, just stick to the standard set by the game, rather than whatever your opinion of fun may be, and you should be fine. So in other words, technically analyze the gameplay designed in a level, rather than just playing and go "oh this is fun but I have no clue why"
No clue if that happened here though.

I'll agree with the no-pro rule. They want to stimulate the mapping community, which is great, but they'll inevitably just draw the professionals or veteran community members out rather than the new guys.

Sure, it's their competition etc and they are fully right to judge it any way they please, it just seems that some of the finalists have no logic reasoning behind their election whereas others do. Calibrah, for instance, is a good example of an entry that you know is justly in that list, and some of the other entries compare rather appallingly to it.

And again, when I hear of the word 'judging' you would think that levels would be somehow dissected analytically and technically and apply that to all the entries to get a clear-cut and logical set of finalists. It would be a wonderful insight for those who entered and those who are generally interested in knowing what exactly the judges did to come to these conclusions. As it stands it's a rather confusing list of finalists.

 

[hal]

It would be a wonderful insight for those who entered and those who are generally interested in knowing what exactly the judges did to come to these conclusions. As it stands it's a rather confusing list of finalists.

I think one of them is doing just that: http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/blog.php?u=8

 

[d3tox]

IMO they should have simply had a rule "no professionals". If you are going to try and attract beginners, you want to give them a chance.

Also the rule that any map made could be entered just sucks. It must really suck to have started on a level for this contest, have only a month the time, and then the last day some dude enters his level that he made some time ago and spend 4 months working on...

Hehe... Trying to pull off a complete level in 3.5 weeks has left me burnt out on this sort of thing. They asked for a "playable" level lol. Next time I'm reading between the lines and sitting it out.

 

[Sirius]

I've played a few of these maps and some are fun but the fact that DM_Marauder is not in the top 10 totally negates the entire contest IMO.

 

[Mozi]

I've played a few of these maps and some are fun but the fact that DM_Marauder is not in the top 10 totally negates the entire contest IMO.

I agree... DM-Marauder should have been on top 10.

But yeah just reading the comments, this contest should have had the rule of no pro mappers w/extensive editor experience.

Hopefully MSUC finalists and winners are judged on a better level where deserving maps do win.

 

[Anuban]

Well I am still in shock that DM-Gutter is not in the top 3 ... that map quite simply rocks and it looks great as well. I also like how this is one of those odd times people get what I am saying and agree ... someone said judging is a very personal thing ... wrong man ... for this contest it can't be personal it has to be fair. It may be their contest but that doesn't given them the right to disregard rules ... their own rules. I do have say I disagree with people about this whole notion of a contest for beginners. The fact is its a mapping contest and people who are just starting out knew that there were others in the contest who had experience with making maps and yet they entered anyway. I don't think it is fair to punish people for having skills and being good at something and that is what you do when you deny people entry to a contest because they actually know what they are doing. To me that just doesn't make any sense.

As with any contest people with less experience just have to take their lumps and get better and come back strong. In most contest there are people with little to know experience and there are those with great knowledge ... its what makes contests so interesting because you never know if an underdog is going to pop up out of nowhere and beat the well known talent. It definitely keeps the contest interesting, for everyone. Besides you don't get better by not going up against the best and I doubt that is what the modders want ... an easy challenge. But then again maybe that is what the new mappers want so maybe the next contest should state explicity that people who have ever done any paid level development are not allowed .... but somehow I don't think the answer lies in excluding people. I just think it lies in fair and balanced judging that stick to established rules and guidelines.

 

[Anuban]

Well here are the Top 5 finalists and again I am sorry and don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings but I just do not agree with these choices. I just don't see it.

http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/sv_oldschool_topfive.php

At least Ebb, Citadel, and surprisingly in a way Shrift have been eliminated but still that certain levels have been left out in the cold just does not sit well with me.

I really don't understand how Shiota got picked though while Steam Temple got dropped (maybe because it is beta??) ... that is just a bad decision but heck once you discount levels like Gutter, OutofGas, and Marauder what can a person expect?

 

[Hyrage]

And I just played the top 5 now, I really like calibrah and whiterealm, the latter mainly for its looks. I really do not see what shioto is doing in there...

I was asking the same question... the map is great for top 25 for his particular feel of freedom, other than that it is the average good looking map (and very dark), too much opened and way to large + too long corridors to enjoy any real dynamic battles.

Hi Zak and thanks for explaining your view... but I have to disagree...
You should not have considered 'fun' as the key factor of your reviews... because fun is completely subjective. Many people does enjoy spamboxes and sniper maps, despite those are unanimously considered non-quality maps among the community. On the other side, construction, layout/flow, item placement, performance, bot support, etc... despite they're not 100% objective, they can be judged with some logic... You can determine whether a map's placement is good or not by looking at the map itself, and the veredict should make enough sense to be accepted by everyone. However, you can't do the same with 'fun' because that's all about the reviewer's taste and skills... If 'map A' is better than 'map B' because some magical force made me enjoy it the most, then my review has zero credibility... :tdown:

Just played all the maps laveled as top 10... Most of them are uninstalled already... All I saw in most of those levels were either massively open spaces or cramped sets of long or labyrinthic hallways. Despite those spaces can be enjoyed by some people, they can't be objectively considered 'good map design'. At this moment Calibrah is IMO the only one that deserves a prize (and therefore I don't expect it to win ), followed by Xenon, WhiteRealm and Nimius. Good luck to their mappers!

You got a point here, but making a fun map isn't as much subjective as you said and is pretty clear. This is simply due to how the brain works. - see Theory of Fun

Primary
The layout of the map must challenge the player as much as it can depending of the specific "Gameplays" that the game offer. You must create the best interactive map that challenges the players to jump, dodge bullets, quickly hide and run, find their way to get the PowerUps, discover and efficiently use the interactive elements of the map to there advantages, etc.

Usually, any placed entity on a map has his specific reason to have a specific impact on a player, so no... the main fun of a map can't be subjective.


Secondary
Now, if we talked about preferences, we should call that the "secondary fun factor of the map". This is where the Level Designer will specifically choose the theme of the map, the way it will feel and look, what will be the main "special looking features", etc.

Maybe the goal behind all the map is to make it the best sniping map ever? But you know what? If the layout is great, any awesome map will be the best for sniping.

So if you are all saying that the Top 5 is wrong because they haven't created space or underwater maps because it's what you would prefer, it doesn't make a map being bad. - This was objective

Plus there was something important behind this contest and it was the fact that the Development Thread was playing an important role... but many of you kinda missed that.

 

[The_Head]

Calibrah (Calibrah in-game):
This map also really cleverly uses lighting, but in a much different way than WhiteRealm. There is an invulnerability pickup, and whenever someone has it, the lighting scheme of the map completely changes. Typically, I would say having invulnerability in a map is a big no-no, however it is used so cleverly in Calibrah that I have a hard time faulting it for that. Visually, the map is awesome, the theme is done superbly and the design is great. Blocking volumes are placed well and weapons and spawns are as well. I find this to be the most fun of the maps in the top 5. I have it on my regular instant action rotation. The bots play it well and you could take the invulnerability out and still have an awesome and playable map.

Fun: 5/5
Gameplay: 5/5
Visuals: 5/5
Replayability: 5/5

Total: 5/5

I played through Marauder and I simply cannot believe it wasn't even in the top ten. It could have been a stock map and been as good or better than any of them.

Just played Calibrah after looking at that. What a fantastic looking level, love the weather changing too.

Makes me want to start mapping again to try similar things

 

[Hyrage]

I just can't agree with the judging on this contest at all, I'm sorry.

I grabbed the top 5 finalists, here are my thoughts (from the order listed on their page):

Shiota (called Shanghai in-game):
This map is visually appealing. And that is where the buck stops, unfortunately. There is NO FLOW, NO GAMEPLAY and the map is absolutely humongous. Replayability is extremely low, I couldn't even finish one match before I got bored of running for ages before finding any enemies. It has far too many open areas where sniping is just too easy and I got caught on all kinds of geometry just running around on paths that the map guides you through. Weapons are in inconvenient places, and spawns are not close to even mildly desirable map locations. Basically, the theme is nice and the map looks good but that is all.

Fun: 1/5
Gameplay: 1/5
Visuals: 4.5/5 (dropped half a point for some goofiness on corners and broken/missing blocking volumes)
Replayability: 1/5

Total: 1.8/5

Xenon (DM-Xenon in-game):
This map is alright, but it's lighting scheme is way too dark. About half the time I could not see opponents because they looked exactly the same as the architecture. The map is also extremely cramped. It's hard to use any tactics because most of the time you are stuffed into tiny little hallways. The overall look of the level is pretty bland for the most part with architecture that all looks the same and not really placed creatively at all. The flow is decent, though, and it's probably fairly replayable. However, due to mistakes like lifts looking exactly like the architecture, it was hard for me to care about the level at all.

Fun: 1/5
Gameplay: 4/5
Visuals: 1/5
Replayability: 3/5

Total: 2.25/5

WhiteRealm (WhiteRealm in-game):
Probably the best thing about this map is clever use of lighting when going into and out of the main building and to different parts of the building. If I were giving points for style, this map would certainly get them. Even still, though, the lighting effects really add to the atmosphere here and make the level really fun. It has nice flow, as well, which is surprising to me considering the theme of the level, but the author actually made it work very nicely. I also thought it was quite replayable since I played more than one match on it.

Fun: 4.5/5
Gameplay: 5/5
Visuals: 5/5
Replayability: 4/5

Total: 4.6/5

Nimius (Nimius in-game):
I found this map to be the worst of them all. The layout was.... nonexistant. The low gravity made it even worse. The bots did nothing but get confused. Often bouncing off the same lift dozens of times, walking way out to the edge of the map and squatting, trying to jump on a tiny ledge and missing, etc. Part of the problem with this map is that there was not a consistent design. You could walk on certain parts of the ship, and you could not walk on other parts that looked more obviously designed to do so. There were only a few flat places that didn't require jumping so sniping is quite prevalent and works far too well. The weapon placement does not feel intelligent and I just couldn't stand to play this one for more than a few minutes. Really, really poor choice. Visually, it was okayish. I liked the idea of the map, but the execution just was not good.

Fun: 0/5
Gameplay: 1/5
Visuals: 2/5
Replayability: 0/5

Total: 0.75/5

Calibrah (Calibrah in-game):
This map also really cleverly uses lighting, but in a much different way than WhiteRealm. There is an invulnerability pickup, and whenever someone has it, the lighting scheme of the map completely changes. Typically, I would say having invulnerability in a map is a big no-no, however it is used so cleverly in Calibrah that I have a hard time faulting it for that. Visually, the map is awesome, the theme is done superbly and the design is great. Blocking volumes are placed well and weapons and spawns are as well. I find this to be the most fun of the maps in the top 5. I have it on my regular instant action rotation. The bots play it well and you could take the invulnerability out and still have an awesome and playable map.

Fun: 5/5
Gameplay: 5/5
Visuals: 5/5
Replayability: 5/5

Total: 5/5

I played through Marauder and I simply cannot believe it wasn't even in the top ten. It could have been a stock map and been as good or better than any of them.

How can you deal with three same different names for the same aspect: fun, gameplay and replayability??? The fun comes from both gameplay & replayability, plus new fun factors.

This, I think, isn't really fair.

This makes a lot more sense:

Visual (architecture, lighting, etc..)
Light glitches, light sources, flat lighting, etc...

Gameplay/ Fun
The layout, the particular gameplays, replayability over time, do you walk 25 seconds before meeting anyone else?, etc.

Originality [wow! factor]
Where does it takes place, is it new, does it bring a new genre, DM-Nowhere is a great example from Remus to say: "WoW! That is UNIQUE" etc.

If you add a "Looking at your development process" also means, did you deal well with the feedbacks and are you able use more creativity to improve your own work over time? Looking back on the how it works in the industry, I think it's valuable to implement that in that kind of Contest.

So... I do think you just had fun at bashing these maps by writing the radical stats, but I found your statements very constructive.

Nimius isn't that bad and Calibrah is cool enough lol.

But would you agree for a Top 3:
1. Calibrah
2. WinterRealms
3. Nimius or would you go for Xenon?

If yes, than 3D Buzz wouldn't be that inaccurate if that was the final Top 3, right?

 

[EisWiesel]

...
Nimius (Nimius in-game):
I found this map to be the worst of them all. The layout was.... nonexistant. The low gravity made it even worse. The bots did nothing but get confused. Often bouncing off the same lift dozens of times, walking way out to the edge of the map and squatting, trying to jump on a tiny ledge and missing, etc. Part of the problem with this map is that there was not a consistent design. You could walk on certain parts of the ship, and you could not walk on other parts that looked more obviously designed to do so. There were only a few flat places that didn't require jumping so sniping is quite prevalent and works far too well. The weapon placement does not feel intelligent and I just couldn't stand to play this one for more than a few minutes. Really, really poor choice. Visually, it was okayish. I liked the idea of the map, but the execution just was not good.

Fun: 0/5
Gameplay: 1/5
Visuals: 2/5
Replayability: 0/5

Total: 0.75/5

now this is an example of how personal judging can be.
if you view this map from the mappers-aspect, the layout ist just very nice becuase it is very unique on all sites and cant be expected if u know only one side of the map. it has also multiple planes, lifts and teleporters which enhances all the ways u can choose to play on the map.
the map has indoor-areas which have a different/faster gameplay as the outdoor-areas, so i dont agree that sniping works so good on the whole map?

ok, i personally hate the pseudo-futuristic sci-fi theme of that map that came from ut3 itself and belongs to many other maps as well but to view it from the other aspects, it has a very unique layout and has much space of how it can be played. the lightning is also totally different and well used on some places of the map which makes every side looking totally different...

according to the decorations and ways used to build this map, it has evrythink that ut3 offers for this theme, and it was used very constant on this map. i dont expected any decoration that disturbed me or were totally out of the theme. all meshes used were matching each other which is one of the most important thing on a map.
so you have ur own thoughts and i have mine as well but i think ur adjudgement, based on a few minutes gameplay, was just not the right way u could analyse this map when the author worked very hard on it for months

 

[Sirius]

DM_Gutter : Luv_Studd
DM_Marauder : Plutonic
DM_Calibrah : sklare

Are these guys professional mappers? I was just wondering because the quality of these maps are top absolutely top notch.

 

[Hyrage]

DM_Gutter : Luv_Studd
DM_Marauder : Plutonic
DM_Calibrah : sklare

Are these guys professional mappers? I was just wondering because the quality of these maps are top absolutely top notch.

Well, I think Plutonic is what we could call Semi-Professional unless he is professional.

The two others are at least, very talented ^^.