If it's not too much to ask, please show a minimum of respect for the person that posted the topic
Why dropping church and not praying might have been a mistake...
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If it's not too much to ask, please show a minimum of respect for the person that posted the topic
Well, it's certainly arrogance from a world view that doesn't believe a person can have a genuine personal experience with God, such as a Near Death Experience, or a vision etc. But these phenomena also occur to many people who didn't believe in God in the first place. After having the experience, they did and also would tell you with certainty what they saw because it was quite clear. I would say that's a perfectly normal reaction. I do think many people do say or do things claiming God's authority or instruction when they have no such thing.
After reading the bible many times throughout my life, as well as several apocryphal and pseudepigraphal books, studying other religions, and studying scientific trends, as well as other philosophies, can I truly say I "know" anything about God? Not really. I have had a vision and other incredible experiences (note that doesn't include being smacked over the head by a baptist preacher and falling to the floor babbling or anything of that nature, but I don't judge those people or claim that is false either). Those shape the way I feel and are very real and potent to me. But I will as readily admit that there is much that I don't know, even about the nature of those experiences let alone God or anything else.
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Ha! Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy.
Just one thing I'd like to say, if there is a god she/he would be far beyond our understanding, the consciousness that birthed the universe would certainly not be the god commonly portrayed in religions. Trying to understand his/her will would be as pointless as explaining why humans deem art necessary to a dog. Just my 0.02$.
because I really cannot think of a single thing that is more arrogant than an individual claiming he/she knows anything about "god" or what "god" wants from us.
I'm pretty sure that most people don't always read every single post in a thread before replying. didn't mean anything by it.If it's not too much to ask, please show a minimum of respect for the person that posted the topic
that's my only concern.
there are too many people out there who go around trying to impress their religion upon others or claiming that their god has tasked them with some specific purpose.
I can tell you without any equivocation that no mortal person knows anything about god or what he wants from us.
perfectly understandable.
my only point about arrogance was that all too often, when people encounter the unexplainable (visions, near-death, etc) they seem so eager to chalk it up as a religious experience. the human brain is a powerful thing, moreso than we can reasonably comprehend at this point in our understanding of its logistics. and there is still much about our own chemistry we have yet to learn.
I only advocate a position of skepticism based on realism or until I am presented with evidence to the contrary.
up to now, this has continually led me to the conclusion that we are our only god. what people call "god" exists within themselves; "his" ability to improve lives or provide comfort comes from our own physiological process, our own wants and desires, our will power.
now, why it is that so many people still consider this some form of outside influence is beyond me...
we all have this power.
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I can think of much higher levels of arrogance than that, although that could lead to what I'm thinking of.
Although I'll happily make assumptions like everyone else, I don't put much weight behind most of them, seeing as a lot of my initial knowledge will be taken as tentative, but one does get to recognize the typical patterns and characteristics of certain types of messages.
(..and here you happily reply with a mouth full of assumptions about what I was supposed to have assumed about you. hehe I was happy leaving the label as "ohok," though.
)Unless you mistook atheism as being absolutist, why state the obvious (that there are many things we do not yet understand)?--The only reason I can think of is to "set us up the bomb" for the "god of the gaps."--So in other words; of course there's a lot we don't know--and nothing of value was lost.
WTF?? He was responding to the irony of "There is no god and religion is stupid." being no more suitable of a stance than "There is a god and no religion is stupid". He was specifically talking about absolutism in atheism (because you brought it up!), so why wouldn't he have made that leap?
if the human brain is more powerful than we can comprehend it is not really much of a leap to keep an open mind to the possibility that parts of it tap into not only the five senses and this reality but other layers of existence or the spiritual realm, if you will.
But people seem satisfied to keep themselves from entertaining such possibilities because of the implications of it, and no doubt at least in part so as not to run the risk of being counted among the simpletons by their peers. To me that speaks more about the ego than a willingness to believe in supernatural explanations for phenomena does.
I can accept that there could be purely chemical, natural, and pyschological explanations for them, but that isn't what my own investigation has led me to believe.
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Bersy, here's what it comes down to for me. I will respect an atheist's position but I ask that he respect mine as well. My faith is mine and mine alone, I push it on to nobody.
There's a lot of questions that remain unanswered. What is consciousness ? Why are we self-aware ? HOW are we self-aware ? What is life and why does it animate itself ? How is it different from still matter ? Why does life exist anyway ? Why is matter solid ? Is it something like a solid object, a hard outside shell or some repelling force ? Why does time only advance in one direction ? Does it advance in one direction or is an illusion that we aren't aware of because we can't see when it stops or starts ? Why is the universe so big and what is it expanding to if there's nothing beyond that ? It is empty out there beyond the universe's limits or is this just a continually expanding container ?
As long as those questions persist, there is always room for imagination and, by extension, some religious beliefs.
@Jacks:SmirkingRevenge: I can understand the kneejerk reaction to religion but some serious studies have shown that certain zones in the human brain are activated when a person is engaged in religious activity. This capacity for faith, belief or whatever you want to call it, has been slowly evolving to meet some need that I wouldn't know how to describe.
However, I remember one comment in a BBC documentary about the evolution of man saying that what distinguished homo sapiens sapiens from other races such as Homo sapiens neanderthalensis is the capacity to think beyond the present day and into the future. Perhaps it is simply the capacity to imagine and predict which not only helps us to change ourselves physically and mentally (projection) but also to change the world around us.
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you keep assuming that I have not "entertained" any of the alternate "possibilities."
you're wrong.
that's fine.
but I am basically saying the same thing as you, only in the reverse.
watch:
I can accept that there could be a supernatural and/or spiritual explanation for the inexplicable nature of our existence, but that isn't what my own investigations have led me to believe.
in the same way that your experiences have led you to believe in some higher power, my experiences have led me to believe the opposite.
I have done plenty of entertaining and soul searching, as to the notion that there might exist another explanation for our life on this planet. again, I didn't just arrive at these conclusions one morning while taking a crap.
so please stop telling me that my beliefs (err, lack there of) are a result of my "ego" or "unwillingness" to consider other outcomes.
because that's just not true.
I arrived at my estimation through trial, the same as you.
right, but that doesn't really mean anything to this argument.
it only means that we can see which parts of the brain are chemically active during certain emotional responses. it doesn't lead to any further conclusions about spirituality.
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Jack I keep assuming nothing, since I was not writing that implying you specifically. But that is how a lot of people are and that's a fact. There are also a lot of people on the religious side who are so mired in slinging slogans that they don't really know why they believe what they believe, themselves, but they will defend it to the death. If you have given it honest examination, I can say nothing else and that is your business anyway.
fair enough.
and you're right, that's how a lot of people are.
I like to think I've kept an open mind, regardless of the conclusions at which I arrive.
see, you and I are merely agreeing to disagree.
I never mean to offend when discussing religion.
the only problem with such a topic is that the opposing arguments are naturally offensive. we can disagree on something without being disagreeable. but when it comes to religion, disagreements feel very personal, like an attack on one's own perceptions of reality.
given their stark contradiction, the views I hold about spirituality fly directly in the face of yours, and vise versa.
you (people who are religious) ascribe the power of religion to a God or a carpenter who lived a thousand years ago.
I ascribe this power to the near-limitless capability of the human mind.
we're describing the same thing.
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"After death it's so much fun."
Atheism--"There almost certainly is no god" because the probability of there being a god is too low based on knowledge attainable by us all so far, but we can't produce any proof to hammer the last nail into that coffin, as it were. It's important to note that the god creatures (there have been many) get no special treatment from other fairy tale creatures, which the anti- point I made was about.
Theism--"There is a god."
PS: I am not being harsh, just brief and to the point, because these discussions stray quickly.. (but I'm sticking to my idea that any thread in Off Topic is allowed to go off topic, and it is my task to help it along, within reason.)
PPS: Recommended--Jeff Hawkins on his brain theory (TED talks):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6CVj5IQkzk
Sir! I thought it was quite clear in the first sentence of my first reply to C, that atheism is not absolutist, also from the most basic point that when you revise something (going from theism (absolutism) to atheism), you don't reintroduce the same idiot mistake you are trying to avoid (absolutism).
Atheism--"There almost certainly is no god" because the probability of there being a god is too low based on knowledge attainable by us all so far, but we can't produce any proof to hammer the last nail into that coffin, as it were. It's important to note that the god creatures (there have been many) get no special treatment from other fairy tale creatures, which the anti- point I made was about.
Theism--"There is a god."
PS: I am not being harsh, just brief and to the point, because these discussions stray quickly.. (but I'm sticking to my idea that any thread in Off Topic is allowed to go off topic, and it is my task to help it along, within reason.
)PPS: Recommended--Jeff Hawkins on his brain theory (TED talks):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6CVj5IQkzk
so... what "variables" go into this probability equation? Since, it's such a legitimate "scientific" approach that will lead to a definite answer, they must be very concrete.
How so? The track record of the many different god ideas that have been recorded in history, the possible origins of today's god ideas from the concept of astrotheology, the naturally assuming mind of humankind.--The further we go, it seems, the less specific the god powers become, because what was earlier unknown or "magic" becomes known.
Probability as in "not probable based on the history of human culture."
If there was a God I wouldn't have the swine flu atm, but I have, case closed.
I don't believe there is a God, the subject don't really interest me and I don't have anything against people who think there is a God. Only problem I have is when leaders of countries start talking in religious terms, it usually means the end of reason and the death of civilians.
I don't believe there is a God, the subject don't really interest me and I don't have anything against people who think there is a God. Only problem I have is when leaders of countries start talking in religious terms, it usually means the end of reason and the death of civilians.
Right. But what I'm saying is that the main zone where this is taking place is there for a reason. I'm not saying it has anything to do with spirituality in the supernatural sense or whatever, I'm just saying that there is some underlying separate function.
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well, usually when you talk of a probability, there's some way to calculate it...
and so you basically say the probability is low because we haven't met him yet? or because there were incorrect assumptions about our origins?